Quote from: Fencesitter on September 23, 2010, 06:31:55 AM
I think I'd lose much of my self-esteem if I dated a partner without knowing if they would accept that I'm transsexual.

The bug-a-boo of course is if they DON'T know then you know you are seen as "total woman". If they DO know, then you aren't absolutely sure HOW they see you.

One of the greatest compliments my Ex paid me was when I asked him years after we broke up "How was life with me different from her (his latest Ex)" and he replied "Not one damned bit!" 

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 20, 2010, 11:17:43 AM
Here's a question for you..

Assuming you are post-op, is it wrong to not disclose the fact that you were once the opposite gender to a partner?

My view is that it's not something that needs to be mentioned, that it is not necessary because it's nobody's business what your body used to look like?

I am still the sum total of my life experiences, regardless of what my body looked like, I'm still the same person..

In general, I agree.

I could see the argument that before a marriage commitment, one might disclose (look at the sh** going on in the Araguz case for an example of unintended consequences) but even there I'm not sure.

Certainly, i can't think of any other circumstance where one should do so except when medically necessary.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 20, 2010, 04:14:27 PM
Yes.

Ok to get more into it, right and wrong are subjective, but my subjective opinion is that yes, it is wrong.

The reason it is wrong, is because it means you are withholding information that you know your partner would want to know about you in making his or her own evaluations of you, which is essentially deceiving them, and showing them mistrust. And I don't think that kind of deceit or manipulation has any place in a healthy relationship.

Why is it that everyone is assuming this is a relationship question when the OP doesn't specify that?

Oh, wait - YES IT DOES!

Doh!

Read better Tammy!

ok, let me clarify my previous response.

If one is in a relationship that is approaching the level of "serious" (however one defines serious) i think that it is probably wisest to disclose BUT I do NOT think that it is unethical, any more than it would be unethical to fail to disclose that, for instance, you were once molested, or raped, or had an abortion, or was a Republican

if the relationship is casual and seems on track to stay that way, no, I wouldn't disclose. IMO the potential for a highly negative, even violent, reaction is no worse whether you disclose up front or your "secret gets out" later

If the relationship is not a "partner" one but friends, then I think it's entirely up to you whether you disclose based on your opinion of the friend and the friendship. I wouldn't want a friend who would reject me because of my history but i can also see the value of having a good girlfriend who never saw me as anything other than a woman in ANY way, no matter how supportive she might be.
also, the more people know, even if supportive, the harder it is to control the circle of people who find out (i.e. employer, for instance)

Again, I would not argue it is unethical.


In short, I think there are wiser and less wise choices to be made here, but i disagree that ETHICS DEMAND that you disclose. it is entirely ethical to disclose or to withhold, depending on the individual's asesement of the individual situation.

Quote from: Colleen Ireland on September 20, 2010, 06:31:29 PM
I guess my view on this is shaped by the fact that I got married when I was still trying to deny my true nature, and therefore ended up doing the same thing but in the opposite direction - and by not disclosing my true nature, I ended up buying myself 31 years (so far) of emotional pain and a living-death life, and now I'm facing what will probably be the slow death of my marriage to a woman I love dearly, and possibly make a train wreck of my family.  So, I do think, in any future relationship, if things get serious, having learned my lesson the hard way, I would plan to be completely open and honest, and let the chips fall where they may.  If the person and I are meant to be together, I trust we will.  If not, then not.  My lack of maturity and emotional courage 30+ years ago will end up costing me dearly, I fear...

I relate to this - soon to be 21 years here, and likely headed for the same outcome.

The only modification I'd make is that it's likely going to cost her far more pain than it does me. I'm a bit of a "cold fish" anyway (Please HRT fix that!!!) but I've accepted the notion that the pain of losing someone i love is part of the price I pay for my condition and the circumstances that brought me here.

Frankly, in the culture i lived in during the 80's, there's no realistic way I could have been expected to disclose my condition to her, or to transition then (even though i now know many of my sisters were, and if i could go back and advise myself i would insist she do so) so I don't feel a lot of guilt for the choices I made - I made the choices society dictated to me. and in good faith.

That i now have to reverse that course is unfortunate, but not something I'm ashamed of. Still, I'd be a monster not to regret how it is hurting her.

Quote from: mija on September 23, 2010, 05:52:08 AM
I'm really super torn on it, because I prefer honesty and not to hold anything back. But it seems so far from experience that honesty on this issue leads to a very lonely existence, and the possibility of never truly assimilating.

I'm sure this isn't what you meant but this sentence provoked a thought in my mind.

there's a saying "three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead"

so - what if, theoretically, you were maintaining a stealth existance, your landlord, employer, etc had no idea of your past.

so you date this guy...things get serious...you tell him...he gets really offended and pissed and you break up....so far it's "oh well, didn't need to care for someone like that anyway" ad no big deal.

BUT

what if said pissed off guy proceeds to run his big mouth to everyone he knows about the "->-bleeped-<-" who "trapped" him and it gets back to your landlord...and you are evicted...it gets back to your transphobic boss...and you are fired....it isso well known you can neither find employment or housing locally?

all because you decided to be "ethical"

To me, it's not so cut and dried.

Quote from: Tammy Hope on September 23, 2010, 11:33:25 AM
Frankly, in the culture i lived in during the 80's, there's no realistic way I could have been expected to disclose my condition to her, or to transition then (even though i now know many of my sisters were, and if i could go back and advise myself i would insist she do so) so I don't feel a lot of guilt for the choices I made - I made the choices society dictated to me. and in good faith.

That i now have to reverse that course is unfortunate, but not something I'm ashamed of. Still, I'd be a monster not to regret how it is hurting her.

I SO identify with all of this.  Except for me it was the 70's.  Same diff.  Republican, midwestern parents.  No access to information.  No access to counseling.  That last sentence, though... TOO true!

Quote from: Tammy Hope on September 23, 2010, 12:24:40 PM

To me, it's not so cut and dried.

Totally agree. I don't think ethics are really an issue unless you are getting married and plan on (at least trying to) be with that person the rest of your life. Then in that case so called good ethics could lead to a big mess. But "bad" ethics could lead to money grubbing benefactors trying to eat you alive! The only way I think anyone can answer the question with any real authority is to try both disclosure and non-disclosure (notice I didn't say the "S" word). Advocates of disclosure may find they feel much better not disclosing when they see how it effects their lives, and vice-versa. So far, telling anyone new in my life has led to an instant disappearing act in all but one guy who already knew he liked trans girls. To disclose or not? Either way you're screwed!

I don't know about the ethics of it, but I would tell for a number of reasons.

1)   Even though I am a mature woman with a grown child, I have never had sex with a man.  I'd like at least the first man to know that and take it into consideration so that he will be gentle and patient with me.

2)   I live in a small town.  More than a thousand people know I am trans.  Chances are if the guy doesn't already know it he'll find out soon enough.  It's better to just to tell him.

3)   A one-night stand or a roll in the hay is one thing, but if it is edging into a relationship, then I would tell because relationships are based on trust, and trust grows through honesty and openness.

4)   I am a blabbermouth (perhaps making up for all those years being quiet ).  Many mornings eating breakfast I will think: "Perhaps I shouldn't have said that last night."  I know myself well enough that I will out myself sooner or later, so it's better to just be up-front about it.

But YMMV.  For me, it's not ethics but practicality.

- Kate

I think it's a really bad idea to hide it because:

1. It's not fair to either person.  The partner has a right to make an informed decision (your past is a part of who you are), and you have the right to be with someone who loves you for the whole of who you are - past included.

2. The longer you're together, the more likely they are to somehow find out.  Telling them yourself gives you the ability to have some control over when and how they find out, and to prepare yourself for this experience.

3. It could be dangerous.  If they find out and are not immediately accepting, they could react with violence.  Trans people have been killed by partners who suddenly found out accidentally.

4.  How close and comfortable could you really be with someone without being able to talk openly about almost everything you've experienced?

Of course all of the above becomes increasingly applicable the longer the relationship lasts.  Probably wouldn't matter if it's just a casual encounter, but who knows - someone you slept with once might still get violent if they found out later.  And there's no easy way to predict whether or not that will happen.  You just have to tell them, or risk your own safety.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 20, 2010, 11:17:43 AM
Here's a question for you..

Assuming you are post-op, is it wrong to not disclose the fact that you were once the opposite gender to a partner?

My view is that it's not something that needs to be mentioned, that it is not necessary because it's nobody's business what your body used to look like?

I am still the sum total of my life experiences, regardless of what my body looked like, I'm still the same person..

Define "partner"? 

I've gone out with several guys that had no clue about me. They didn't ask and I didn't tell .

Now if this is someone you plan on seeing for say more than 3 dates (that's the defining number for me), I tell them about me, my past, everything.

To look at it from an ethical stand point it is hard to say if it would be unethical not to disclose because ethics in general is a very fluid thing based completely on right and wrong. Right and wrong are different for every person for many reasons, the morals you were raised with, the area of the world you live in, family structure, etc. If something goes against local morals/values, religious or political views that are prominent in the area you live then it is unethical despite that overall it may honestly be the correct and right thing to do.

Ethics are tricky like that.

As far as the idea that a partner does not need to know what your body looked like in the past, I would agree with that... to an extent. This would cross the line for me personally. This isn't the difference between my partner knowing if I was the Homecoming king or the chubby nerd with acne, this is the fact that I was so different physically growing up than what I am now that I was raised with a completely different set of morals, beliefs, views and expectations.

When it comes down to the last statement though, "I am still the sum total of my life experiences, regardless of what my body looked like, I'm still the same person," I immediately hit a brick wall and literally stopped myself and though "WTF" lol.

You are correct, we are all the sum of our total life experiences, but being trans was part of that life experience for us. Most of the way I relate to other people emotionally and express my feelings were only allowed and nurtured because I was a girl. That is a very important and big part of who I am. I would not be the person I am today at all had I not been born and raised as a female in regards to how my family taught me and how society taught me it was acceptable to act and behave. I would not be the same person when it comes to romantic relationships and not knowing I was raised as a female would definitely make my actions seem odd to a partner, to say the very least.


Side note here, for all of the women talking about how their marriages have changed or been lost due to their transition I would really recommend reading the book "Dress Codes of Three Girlhoods - My Mother's, My Father's and Mine". It was written by the daughter of a transsexual who's parents were married for years before her father finally came out. It is very interesting to see how BOTH of her parents changed while dealing with the issue, as well as being able to see from her view point how her relationship with her father changed during the process of transitioning. Very beautiful and well written, I think some of you could relate very well to the way the father was emotionally towards the wife and daughter. Plus I know it isn't common to find books from the child's point of view actually based on real life experience. It's always nice to find something so informational from a real person who is in the shoes of someone we care for when we can't really understand their experience. If you had children it will really tug at your heart

If you're going to have a relationship with someone I think it's horrible if you don't tell them that you're a transexual, because it's something that would seriously affect their judgement on the relationship. Some people wouldn't want a relationship with a transexual. Perhaps they're not narrow minded, but instead their sexuality restricts them.

I have to say that if you are speaking of post-op transsexuals, i disagree.

while I do think it is wisest to be honest, especially if there is any reasonable possibility you might be found out later - if you are post op and a fully functional member of your target gender and you have someone who professes feelings for you - and youtell that person you are (or more properly "were") trans and that persons feelings for you change based on that information...

I'm sorry, that's a bigotry issue, not a sexuality issue.

if I'm fully female, functional in every way a natal female with a hysterectomy is, and you are attracted to females  - then your lack of attraction to me is NOT a matter of your sexuality.

IMNSHO.

if the TS is lucky enough to be totally passable then maybe there isn't any reason to disclose unless the guy wants children but that's a different matter.   
If the passability needs low lights and alcohol then disclosure needs doing early to save problems.

main thing is to be an interesting person someone else would wish to spend their life with?

Quote from: Nicky on September 20, 2010, 04:55:59 PM
I don't think I would call it unethical, hiding your past.

But I think if you want a serious relationship, discolosure is best. Secrets are a horrible burden, its like being in a new cage. We go through our transitions in some ways to get out of a cage, I don't want to jump into another.

Personally I am very open about being a trans girl and have no trouble telling a prospective partner, or anyone else for that matter.

I agree with Nicky one-hundred percent on this one.  The truth is the way to go.  Personally, as I transition, I'm "wide open" about it.  No hiding.  No masking.  No faking.  My inspiration is the gays of the 1960s/1970s.  Out and proud.  I believe we should be right out there but in a decent way with the general society.  Why?  To acclimate them to us.  They'll come to see that we are people too, love our friends and families, work our jobs or businesses and just want a peaceful and happy life.  The Gay Pride thing of the 1960s/1970s made gay acceptance what it is today.

Yeah, it's still got a long way to go, but it's come a LOOONNNG way since The Bad Old Days.  Same deal with transfolk.  Get out.  Get proud.  Be dignified.  Some gays years ago were over the top about it and deliberately "rubbed it in people's faces" thereby only pissing them off.  Bad move.  Win them over by exposure to what we HAVE IN COMMON WITH THEM. 

This past Saturday, 3 October 2010, I went out in public fully en femme for the first time ever ... at our local major mall ... even used the ladies' room at one point ... eventually.  Why not start in the bigtime?  Just do it.  Did some people read me?  Probably did.  Nobody confronted me.  Had they, I'd treat them with dignity, class and respect and never get in their face.  Yeah, that requires swallowing my pride and lots of self control.  But, treating people with respect and class, even when they don't deserve it, wins the day ... over time.  Just my opinion.  President Franklin Delano Roosevelt was right in the 1930s when he said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."  Every fear and bugaboo I'd developed about going out completely en femme was completely unfounded.  Granted, Portland is moreorless a very transfriendly place.  That's why I moved here.  However, many of you are out and about all over the world and do just fine ... much better than I do, if the truth be told.  Let's just get out there, be ourselves and live our lives.  Society WILL evolve ... but only if they are exposed to us and what they have in common with us that they value and hold dear.

That's just my opinion.  It's your life, so it's your call.  Do what you want.  A relationship?  Be honest.  Good luck.   

I agree, LaceyLynne.  It is when you know that your neighbor, your co-worker, your friend, the gal in the next pew is trans that we gain acceptance.  It helps normalize us.  If you need to be stealth because of your situation, where you live, or because of your inner needs, fine; but the more of us who are open, the more readily we will be accepted.

I went to the Gay March on Washington in the 90s.  There was a group - I forget which - that would chant: "We're queer.  We're here.  Get over it."  I loved it.

Out and proud (but happy to woodwork day-to-day),
Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 06, 2010, 05:31:26 PM
I agree, LaceyLynne.  It is when you know that your neighbor, your co-worker, your friend, the gal in the next pew is trans that we gain acceptance.  It helps normalize us.  If you need to be stealth because of your situation, where you live, or because of your inner needs, fine; but the more of us who are open, the more readily we will be accepted.

I went to the Gay March on Washington in the 90s.  There was a group - I forget which - that would chant: "We're queer.  We're here.  Get over it."  I loved it.

Out and proud (but happy to woodwork day-to-day),
Kate

Many thanks, Kate!  Kudos from you mean much to me.  You are a role-model of mine though you're my elder but just a tad.  You are one of a small handful of people I admire the most on here.

Anyway, Kate's so right, not because I say so, of course, but simply because she is.  What she said here is one of those a priori, self-evident truths that stands on its own merit. 

Let's just be our TRUE ourselves, out, about and, EVENTUALLY, normal in the greater society.  Kate and I may not live to see the day when transness is no big deal in the larger society, but you younger gals and guys surely will.  Pioneers make it happen.  All of us here are semi-pioneers.  The REAL pioneers of the modern era, Christine Jorgensen, Renee Richards, Lynn Conway, Canary Conn, Karen Serenity, etc., made what acceptance we have today entirely possible for us.  We owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude. 

Young 'uns, Kate and I can tell you, when WE were your age, THERE WAS NO ACCEPTANCE OF TRANSNESS!  We're making HUGE progress, folks, thanks to each and every one of you.  Rock on!   

   Lacey