Quote from: Tree on September 29, 2010, 10:20:55 PM
the center point? or the whole volume? there are a lot of people who bounce around the middle, walk around the inner area of the surface, bisect it, do other things, or litter the sky outside of it like bizarre constellations. androgyne means a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that people do, and then they overlap. i like your sphere. i want it to expand.

The whole volume. I suppose one of the points I was making is that there is a difference between Androgyne and the rest of the world. Their labels and descriptions just never seem to fit, no matter how you combine, slice and dice, or try to redefine. Not that I have anything better. We see the surface from a different direction. Our focus is different.

Hey Muffin! Strictly speaking of gender only, I'm about on the meter (I like that) where you are. Most of the time. So yah, from that standpoint, you're completely right. It's the trying to explain it to others, and even myself, that all the labels and descriptions start to mess that all up. I find several points along the line that suit me for different reasons. Averaging them out doesn't feel right. Making it a range instead of a point doesn't feel right. Which all led to the sphere thing that doesn't solve anything, it's only a point of view. Which all goes back to my statement of I don't try to describe myself, lately. I hope it hasn't frustrated my therapist...

I am not a fan of labelling but if someone came up to me in the street and asked me what gender I was and I only had two options to choose from (M or F), I'd pick the F one but I would do it with some hesitation. Not because I feel male, or partly male or anything like that but because I wouldn't like the fact that I choose female to lead to me being constrained or boxed in. Afterall, I don't want to go to all the trouble to change my sex and gener role only to jump from one box to the other. When I do make the brave step to publically change my gender presentation I want to feel I've earned to right to portray myself in any way I want.

I sorta like the idea of being butchy sometimes, not hardcore leather butchy, but I don't consider myself a girly girl either. I love dresses and the thought of getting all dressed up and pretty is exciting but for the most of the time I'd like to be comfortable in jeans and a hoody. I kinda like the idea of myself being a guyish girl, the kind you have to gently force into getting all dolled up. Sadly though by the time I do get to transition, that might no longer be an option. We'll see....

I find the being scared of labels when it comes to gender to be strange.... it's like anything else that is fixed. What colour is your skin? oh it's ...well...I don't like to label myself......dude it's white! why be so finicky about it??
There are plenty of people out there who's gender doesn't sit around the far ends, closer to the middle and they don't feel weird about it so why should anyone else? I don't get it.
How tall are you? oh......I don't like to label myself......*measures you* you're 5'7" 0_0 ...oh...but yeah do we really need to label my height? *rolls eyes*.

I'm not afraid of labels I am just not a fan of them. I don't agree that gender can be labelled in the same way as skin colour or nationality or religion. I have no problem labelling myself an Irish athetist vegan but when it comes to my gender I find that the labels we currently have are not sufficient enough. That being said I have no fear of them and I am perfectly happy to call myself a woman.

I'll take a stab at this.

  Generally speaking, I am a genetic male who's label of late is identifying as bi gender/androgyne who is asexual.  That is today. If David was dominant right now I'm  sure he would disagree with bombi.

White 5'9" Androgyne.

Well, not actually white, although I appear to be. I'm actually bi-racial.
Well, I'm really 5'9 1/2", but usually I'm listed as 5' 10", (people usually round up).
Well, I'm Androgyne, which covers a lot of different descriptions and labels, which someone has asked me 'which of those labels and descriptions fit you?'. Then the fact that I am getting shorter from aging, I would prefer to be listed as 5'9" as it will be closer to the truth, till I'm 5'8 1/2" lol.  When I tell people about my heredity, it brings up speculation and I've been asked how can I justify calling myself white when I'm not. 'It's convenient, and easier most of the time'.

The more comfortable I get about who I am, the more correct the descriptions and labels I use, seem to be correct. For a lot of people, especially those who have just arrived at the conclusion that they fall somewhere in the descriptions and labels, it is or it's going to be a journey to get to where they know who they are. To always have the labels and such over the horizen is one thing, to be able to see them all is another.
It seems so easy now, but it was oh so hard when it all started, from the beginning.
The shortest distance between is a straight line, but then you just might miss something along the way. You might end up always wondering, which is just going to eat away at you're conclusions of who you are. Those of you who are just now looking at who you are, it's a journey through the description/label pile, for those who are nearing the end of that phase, it is pretty much a straight line that you're on. It's then just a matter of refining what you know and feel. And the adjustments you make as you move through life will be smaller. How do I describe myself, my gender? Lately I don't. It is what it is.
That's not to say it will remain the same, always. It'll change, no doubt. But I have a lot more experience now, I pretty much know I'll be able to accept the changes I'll make, because Ive looked at and tried on a lot of descriptions and labels to find the ones that fit.

My gender is: woman

My sex is (unfortunately): male
Sex being a physiological condition with a biological definition.

Quote from: Muffin on September 30, 2010, 09:41:05 PM
I find the being scared of labels when it comes to gender to be strange.... it's like anything else that is fixed. What colour is your skin? oh it's ...well...I don't like to label myself......dude it's white! why be so finicky about it??
There are plenty of people out there who's gender doesn't sit around the far ends, closer to the middle and they don't feel weird about it so why should anyone else? I don't get it.
How tall are you? oh......I don't like to label myself......*measures you* you're 5'7" 0_0 ...oh...but yeah do we really need to label my height? *rolls eyes*.

okay, the issue i find with this is that the "spectrum" model doesn't work for a lot of people. my friend wrote it really well:

QuoteI take issue with the idea that gender is a spectrum (and this is also why I've had a hard time calling myself genderqueer). When you say gender is a spectrum, the usual implication is that you have masculinity on one side, femininity on the other, and everything else in between. This is still an incredibly binary interpretation of gender - because all the middle can be is a combination of masculinity and femininity, or differing degrees of one or the other. Even the symbol used to represent the idea that gender is a spectrum insinuates that - you have symbols for male, female, and both-male-and-female. So while "gender is a spectrum" is way more progressive than "your options are boy and girl and that's it", it's not enough. It doesn't give any options for not male and not female.

[...]

What this [...] doesn't get at, I think, is the idea that gender is a social construct, and that's it. It's not an intrinsic property. It doesn't exist on its own. Gender is like fairies - it only exists if you believe in it and go along with the clapping. You can't stop being assigned a gender, and you can't escape the system because it's everywhere, but I think this graphic perpetuates this idea that gender is this sort of tangible thing that everyone has.

That doesn't mean that people don't identify strongly with genders, or that people should stop identifying the way that they identify. It's really important to me that I'm not put into boxes I don't want to be in, and if for now we're stuck with a system where people have to pick boxes, I sure as hell want people to be able to pick the ones they're in. But in order to get past that stage of boxes, we need to recognize that they're only there because we keep building them. And that's my problem with this graphic: it says "there are more boxes than you think, and some people like to decorate theirs with glitter and stickers!" instead of "let's get out of the boxes!"

^^your friend doesn't understand the difference between gender and gender identity? That is how it reads to me.

But what if I like my box? I get that you don't want to be in a box - but I don't understand the step where you go from "I don't want a box" to "let's get rid of all the boxes." Just because you don't like boxes doesn't mean you should get to take my box away.

what's the difference between gender & gender identity? my understanding is that gender is a framework invented by a collective society and that we identify within that given framework whether actively or not. i don't think my friend is trying to say "nobody is allowed to be in boxes anymore!" i think it's more of a "i don't want to be in a box, but i am placed in one because of how people read me. i take issue with that." it may not have been phrased in that way, but i've spent a lot of time conversing with this friend over all of this, and so it goes. please point out if i'm wrong or offensive? i want you to keep your box if you're comfortable with it. i want people to be happy where they are at.

Indescribable but not nondescript? 
I've just given up with the labels. It's nice to know there are people who share my feelings about gender, but I don't need a category really, I just needed to know that other possibilities existed. I am myself, and what best describes me shifts from moment to moment, so I just am.
That doesn't mean to say I don't get irritated with people who say things like "but you're a girl" and "Move it, woman!" I even still get a part of me surprised when people call me 'she', I'm like "oh yeah...".
Tiredness is getting the better of my sentence structure and general clarity, as usual.
With regards to how society views gender, I think that our perception of it can only broaden with time. I mean, already people are a lot more comfortable combining male and female clothing to get the look they want, maybe in the future that will move out into physical characteristics and even to greater understanding and acceptance of those who consider themselves 'other' (as in, something not even related to male and female). I am optimistic about the future. Our understanding and tolerance can only improve now.
The ways to visualise it seem to me a bit like trying to find an analogy for concepts in quantum physics (especially with the web thing); that is to say, only people who know stuff about quantum physics/gender already could even come close to understanding it, and although it may be true, it is still somewhat beyond our limited comprehension at this time.
So yeah. Onwards, to the future! And even more complicated visual representations! Huzzah! 

Quote from: Tree on October 03, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
please point out if i'm wrong or offensive? i want you to keep your box if you're comfortable with it. i want people to be happy where they are at.

You're doing just fine. This is always a good topic for discussion.
Finding where you're at makes for being happy as long as you can accept it for yourself.
I doubt if anyone here is the same as anyone else, so point of view is always interesting.
Accepting that is gonna help make the good people here happy.

@fenrir: you're right! i worry about these things not being accessible enough for people--especially people who matter--and sometimes i forget that. but that just means that we need to keep on talking about it.

@ativan: thanks for the encouragement. you're totally on it - nobody sees these things the same way because we all have our individual experiences, and that's important. that's the beauty of where we all come from.

I am a woman with certain birth anomalies.  What those are is noneya.  None ya business.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 04, 2010, 12:23:05 AM
I am a woman with certain birth anomalies.  What those are is noneya.  None ya business.

wow, this is awesome!

I thought I had already answered this but I couldn't find it so
I'm an intergendered androgyne which falls under the genderqueer umbrella which falls under the transgender umbrella

I'm about 60% girl, 40% boy. My feminine ideals tend to overlap my masculine ideals,
which make my gender identity a huge, discombobulated mess.

Sometimes I'm a girl, sometimes I'm a boy.
Sometimes I'm both, and other times neither.

It's confusing, but I'm learning to live with it.

@ Kyril-
People who are happy with any box should certainly be able to choose a box and stay in it...but you shouldn't be forced to jam yourself in any particular box (the wrong one, based on birth sex, not actual gender) or, in my case, cut bits off to fit in one gender box (because parts of you belong in both boxes).

And I'd like to duct-tape the pink box and the blue box of gender together at right angles...    

It's not so much that I want the boxes tossed out, I just want me, and other people like myself, to not face societal awfulness if they don't fit in those boxes.   Which is hard without making the boxes a lot less important.   Actually, it's just not going to be easy at all, is it?

Quote from: rite_of_inversion on October 08, 2010, 05:46:34 PM
@ Kyril-
People who are happy with any box should certainly be able to choose a box and stay in it...but you shouldn't be forced to jam yourself in any particular box (the wrong one, based on birth sex, not actual gender) or, in my case, cut bits off to fit in one gender box (because parts of you belong in both boxes).

And I'd like to duct-tape the pink box and the blue box of gender together at right angles...    

It's not so much that I want the boxes tossed out, I just want me, and other people like myself, to not face societal awfulness if they don't fit in those boxes.   Which is hard without making the boxes a lot less important.   Actually, it's just not going to be easy at all, is it?

i love this, and i love exploding boxes.