So, yeah. I've come to the realization that the people at work will never get the pronouns right. I don't know why, but it's just not sticking or they aren't even trying- despite me constantly reminding them. Some are starting to do good, others do good then relapse and others aren't even trying. I've accepted that the people at work will never fully see me as male. It's really starting to bum me.

So, once I've had and healed from top surgery and get some other things in order I'm looking for a new job. This just isn't going to work out. In the meantime, any recommendations on dealing with people at work who can't process or comprehend change?

I talked to my boss and told him how important it was for me to be addressed with the correct gender pronouns, and stressed that it would really mean a lot if people could make an effort to do so.  I didn't specifically ask him to tell the rest of the staff, but the next day I had a coworker come up to me and say, "I didn't realize you wanted to be called 'he'.  I'm sorry for calling you the wrong thing for so long, and I'm really going to to try to call you the right thing." 

I was nervous to bring it up again (I mentioned it when I was hired and had them change my name from my legal female name to my preferred male name), but it went over really well and everyone has been making a considerable effort to use the right pronouns since.  When people do mess up, for the most part, they seem to be aware of it. 

Your workplace is more evolved than mine, Littlemonster. I emphasis the importance of people using correct pronouns, correct people and remind people. I feel like it's a full-time job alone at work.

What gets me the most is my manager- who I correct the most. Around new employees she goes out of her way to use male pronouns (and brags about it). That's good, but when she talks to employees who know she reverts to female pronouns. If she can be so diligent around new employees why can't she do it all the time? Or at least until it becomes second nature? Are my co-workers just lazy, stubborn or don't care? I feel like I'm not being taken seriously.

The best part is a guy I don't like at work and our relationship isn't the best does the best job with proper pronouns. Ah, the irony. All my co-workers say they're supportive of my transition. Really? Then try to use the correct pronouns! That's the most important part! I feel like I'm having smoke blown up my arse.

That's really lame that you have to deal with that.

My best advice?  Really bring down the hammer on your superior - politely, professionally, but firmly.  You have the right to be comfortable in your workplace, and what you're asking of people isn't any great inconvenience to them.  You have the right to make this demand, and it needs to be respected.  Your boss probably has a boss, and if your request is ignored again, take it to the next level. 

Quote from: littlemonster on October 04, 2010, 09:10:43 PM
That's really lame that you have to deal with that.

My best advice?  Really bring down the hammer on your superior - politely, professionally, but firmly.  You have the right to be comfortable in your workplace, and what you're asking of people isn't any great inconvenience to them.  You have the right to make this demand, and it needs to be respected.  Your boss probably has a boss, and if your request is ignored again, take it to the next level.

not necessarily and demanding too aggressively can be enough to lose employment.

Hi,

I know this reply may not be tolerated by all, but I hope it prompts important discussion.

Whose prerogative is it? We, being TG ? Webe  have this demand to be accepted by people who have no idea what we are about. Hi, I'm Cindy, you have known me as Tom/Dick/Harry for the last X years. I'm now Cindy, I will addressed as a female, I will be treated as a female, I will be respected as a female. No you do not have a choice. If you question anything I will report it. I'm going to wear female clothing,  I'm probably going to be a bit of a fashion workhorse as I get used to being me. I may flirt a bit as I get use to my sexuality, if you take advantage I will report you. Oh and I wish your love and support in these difficult times.

Radar, I'm not coming down on you. I think you are one hell of a man to keep going and planning ahead. I also realise I have written this from a female perspective, it was interesting, I tried for half an hour to think this from a male position. I couldn't. I'm not proud of that BTW.

Hugs Brother
I hope it gets better

I've had several pronoun fails at work this past week, and like your place usually occurs in the presence of people who knew before (and then not corrected) but if in front of newer employees or clients they correct themselves.  It is getting annoying, seeing how it has been 2 yrs now since I came out at work.

I would love to switch jobs but can't turn down the money I make at this time.


Jay

Littlemonster, the thing is this is happening with my manager and superiors along with the subordinates. They are supportive (so they say) but they just can't get the pronouns down.

Quote from: LordKAT on October 05, 2010, 01:41:27 AMnot necessarily and demanding too aggressively can be enough to lose employment.

Very true. This is why I'm handling this with tolerance and diplomacy- even though I'm exploding inside. If it doesn't get better then I have little choice but to leave. No one should have to tolerate this forever at work.

Cindy, you do bring up good points, but it looks foolish on co-workers when they call someone who looks like a guy, acts like a guy and sounds like a guy a woman. It confuses people and puts me on the spot. It also puts the co-worker on the spot for saying what someone would assume is a mistake. Then the client or outside person gets confused and is thrown into uncertainty. So, for the place I'm at in transition (and have much more to go) calling me female pronouns is a lose, lose, lose situation for everyone. Hell, I still go by my first name (unisex) so all they have to change is pronouns. I don't expect to be treated differently or given special perks. All I ask for is proper pronoun usage. From a professional point of view it makes everyone feel stupid, causes confusion, embarrasses me and gets me depressed. Not wanting that in the workplace is a legal right.

Jay, I'm shocked work still does this to you- especially after the amount of time you've been on T and all your surgeries. They have to look like complete fools calling you a female. My theory is after all that time if they can do it all the time around new people or clients but don't around themselves then they chose not to. That is disrespectful and plain douchebaggery.

I understand you on the money and benefits thing. That's why I'm waiting until certain things are done before looking for a new job. I want things taken care of so I can start a new place with a fresh start and starting out- with everyone- as being know as male. Maybe that's the only solution? Perhaps my current work is a lost cause.

Don't rock my world.  Don't upset my apple cart.  Don't tell me I need to be sensitive to your issues.  It's too hard.  I don't want to think and I certainly don't want anyone telling me that what I learned, no matter how incorrect it is, is wrong.  Just let me stay in this state of ignorant bliss.

That's pretty much the message people send when you ask them to simply accept you for who you are.

My sister prefers to be called PJ.  Growing up, all of her siblings called her Pat.  About 20 years ago she told me she prefers PJ to Pat and said it bothers her no one will honor that.  I was unaware it mattered to her until that moment.  So I started calling her PJ.  No problem.

Several years ago she told me some of our siblings still call her Pat.  One said, "You are Pat to me and I will always call you that.  I don't like the name PJ."    Huh?

Why people want to die on a hill like this I just don't get.  Okay, gender change is a lot less common than name change but really, WHO CARES???!!!  Does it hurt me to call you Joe rather than Sue?  NO!  Does it hurt me to refer to you as he or him rather than she or her?  NO!  Sure, I will have to make an adjustment but it's not like it affects my everyday life.  I'll live. 

"Good morning Joe."

That didn't hurt too bad, did it?

But so many people just don't want to have to think.  And change?  Not unless I benefit from it!  And even if I do, I still don't like change.

I guess that's why many of us just go off and start a new life.  Then we don't have ask people to be considerate and respect our change.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 05, 2010, 08:08:12 AMDon't rock my world.  Don't upset my apple cart.  Don't tell me I need to be sensitive to your issues.  It's too hard.  I don't want to think and I certainly don't want anyone telling me that what I learned, no matter how incorrect it is, is wrong.  Just let me stay in this state of ignorant bliss.

Wiser words have never been spoken. That's why I've chalked up work as a lost cause. While I'm here I'm going to keep trying and insisting though. I won't give up.

It's sad they'll lose who they call "their best graphic designer ever" because they can't accept change and be decent, respectful people. Oh well. Screw them.

In early transition, I can totally understand people who mess up the pronouns by accident, because after all if it looks like a duck the you're gonna go ahead and call it a duck by instinct.

These stories of people not switching over once you've been transitioned for years and clearly look like your target gender confuse me greatly. They also worry me, I've always assumed that my family would make the switch once I was further on.

IKR. Even though people at work haven't known for years- only about 2-3 months. Still, you'd think I'd see some improvement. Especially since I seem to pass pretty much everywhere. It just makes them look stupid.

What bothers me most is that they will use proper pronouns (mostly) around people who don't know I'm trans. But within each other they revert back. Now, I understand you have to watch yourself and be mindful of what you're saying. But, can't they continue this mindset all the time to the point it becomes second nature? Is that not the most logical and fastest way to adapt? It's just laziness. Plain old laziness. Then there's the problem of new people hearing others talk and hearing conflicting pronouns. Confusion ahoy!

I can understand family and people who have known you your or their whole life will take longer. But people who have known you 3 years max? Yeah, workplaces like Jay's confuse me too. You'd think that after 2 years and as far into transition as he's in instincts would kick in. Like you say- walks like a duck...

Would it be possible to speak to your manager and explain to them that if you were addressed by your chosen name/correct pronouns that you'd be a better worker?  Meaning that you'd be less focused on your gender/their mistakes and that would help you be more focused on your work.

That's what I had to do at school with really difficult instructors.  If they wanted me to be solely focused on school, then they had to stop reminding me I was transgender by constantly misgendering me.

I wouldn't demand anything.  Word things in a way that they're able to see the benefit for them and not necessarily for you.

That's the problem- my manager is one of them... as well as the owner. We don't have an HR. The closest thing is my manager. Sometimes working for small companies suck.

I've explained time and time again to her the importance of it and how it gets me down and she says she understands, but then pulls the "it's so hard to remember" BS.

Well, I'm going to use this place. Use it for the money, benefits, time off for surgery and work on transitioning farther. Once that's done and other things are squared away the next better opportunity I'm taking it- and I will be looking. I'd rather stay here longer and prepare for stealth then start at a new company who knows I'm trans.

Yeah I get that too with my family, it's all "he" and "him" and "nick" around new people but then back on home turf they don't bother. It's MEGA frustrating.

I have no confidence in workplaces getting things like that right. I think the best way is exactly as you've said - transition in the current place then move on and go socially stealth.

That's what I've done and it's the best move I ever made. Every time I hear my co-workers talking about one of the transsexuals that transitioned on the job, and the pronouns they use (amongst other things), I'm really thankful I did what I did.

I couldn't imagine how much a pain in the ass it would be to spend most of my time with people that knew. Kudos for putting up with it for so long - I wouldn't have had the patience.

Yes, I believe a change of jobs, when ready, will do me good. Right now I'm biding my time. It's too bad though. I really enjoy what I do here, it's the environment that gets me down. Not just about trans stuff- there is alot of BS around here. Especially after a certain manager (not mine) started working around here. My work ethics, beliefs and tolerance has become too different for this workplace. This started a long time ago. I just hope things will get a little better before I leave.

Well, once I'm gone and people find out a big reason why maybe it will open their eyes. I doubt it though. I've never heard anyone talk bad about my trans status, but by how people gossip around here I'm not delusional in thinking nobody does.

Thanks Teknoir. My patience has gotten really short lately though. How long did you stay at your old job before you transitioned far enough? I'm curious how long you had to put up with stuff.

Here's a message for all of you out there who don't want to be stealth at the workplace- if people know you're a transman they will never fully see you as male. You have been warned.

Quote from: Radar on October 06, 2010, 07:00:59 AM
Here's a message for all of you out there who don't want to be stealth at the workplace- if people know your a transman they will never fully see you as male. You have been warned.

I do wonder, though, if people meet a transguy as male, who has been on T for a while and who looks unquestioningly male, and later (after knowing him or working with him for a bit) find out he's trans, does this still hold true?  Hasn't happened to me (yet; and I don't plan to randomly disclose) but just an out loud wonder. 


Jay

I've wondered that too, but I can share something from experience. Newer co-workers here who always saw me as male before they found out still seemed to see me as male. Perhaps a different kind of male, but still male. Therefore, they have no problems with correct pronouns. It seems the people who knew me as female first just can't grasp it and consistently or even use male pronouns. I'm sure it also depends on each person and the company so YMMV.

I guess some people's brains can't handle change, they just can't accept it or are in denial. God help them if they ever have a big personal change in their life.

BTW I printed out Julie Marie's quote and put it on my office door. Maybe that will somewhat subtlety hit a few people over the head with the clue bat. It's evidently time to use different tactics since the current one isn't working.

reading this thread REALLY makes me want to stick to my plan of just having a lame job that i don't mind quitting while transitioning, and waiting until i can live "stealth" before i get a real job in the field i'm going to school for.