Thanks Morgan, that post sure was nice.

Quote from: Morgan on October 30, 2010, 08:53:42 PM

I agree with both sides here. Manipulation comes from both sides of the board, and though not to everyone, it is seen as a 'woman' thing to do (though I think that stereotype is a little inaccurate, personally. Men are just more up front) But I see manipulation as either bad or good. Everyone does it, whether it's rarely or everyday. The way you describe what you do, A, I don't think it's wrong for you to say you are manipulative, it's pretty normal. You use it for self preservation, which is vital, especially for transgendered folks.

I am sorry to A and spacial, but I have a bit of a bugbear regarding manipulation.  And in my experience I have found it to be in both sexes equally.

I agree Morgan about manipulation being a personality trait rather than a gender thing though.

My example of how I understand manipulation; it can be used to coerce another to sleep with them because if they 'really loved them' they would. 
It can be used to stop another from leaving because they will kill themselves if they do. It can be used to make someone feel guilty and so you must do what they want to set things right or pay the consequences. It can stop someone from changing their life or make choices because it will devastate them if you do.
It's also called being played. I would hate to think I have ever done that to another human being except maybe as a child.

I would really like to hear of examples where manipulation is used for self preservation? Keeping secrets or leading another to believe something that may be different from reality, is not manipulation as I understand it.
Please could I have some positive examples of harmless manipulation?.

Hermione, great post!

I've used manipulation for good, though I wouldn't say I'm a manipulative person. I very rarely do anything that would be considered that, it's just not really who I am. That being said, I do have a few examples for you of where it can be good or neutral or what have you, some I've concocted, and some I've experienced or done.

One for good is that my girlfriend Elaine has struggled with a very painful past and was, and still is sometimes, very suicidal. One time I had to pull the old 'if you love me you won't do it' which is manipulative. It stopped her, so there you have it, I suppose. If I hadn't manipulated her out of suicide, she wouldn't be here. I'm sure that's not the only instance I've used such means to bring her back from the edge.

As far as transition goes, I can't think of any examples. We'll have to hear from A on that bit

For the harmless section of manipulation, say you're trying to convince someone to go see a movie with you, but they don't really feel like it? Well you could manipulate them into it, (Think, 'when's the last time we hung out? do you not want to hang out?' or something similar.) and you both end up having a good time anyways. That's pretty harmless. You're not convincing them to do something they wouldn't have enjoyed, but in my opinion that's still fairly manipulative.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not transitioning in any way, nor do I want to, but I will say that I'm comfortable with both my sides.

With that said, it isn't particularly bad that you feel comfortable with your own skin right now, despite being clocked wrong. In fact, I welcome the attitude over being sad about your current disposition any day.

I think this needs some explanation: From my observation, in the community and outside of it, there's a subset of people who want to primarily focus their transition and get so obsessed with it that they forget to stop and smell the roses. Life is life, before, during, and after transition, and I think your attitude right now will bring a lot more positive energy in your life and make your transition a bit more meaningful than just the medication and the steps you gotta finish to become who you want to be.

I firmly believe with taking the good with the bad, but focusing on the good and learning from the bad. If I get clocked wrong, whoops! Let's learn from it. If I get a sincere complement, I take it and lavish in it. It seems like a very narcissistic attitude, but if there's anything my boss has told me is to take complements well and never deny it. After all, it only means that you're doing things right.

</rant>

Well, I think most of us unconsciously manipulates to some degree. And one doesn't need to lie to manipulate. For example, tomorrow, I will manipulate the psychiatrist into believing me and starting my transition. I will need to, because if I don't, he'll do like everyone I've talked to, manipulate me into saying it "may not be that urgent after all".T

That's self-preservation, as it's very easy to make me admit something I don't believe into through manipulation. The same applies when looking for a job. I have to manipulate the interviewer into thinking I'm a good candidate - just saying the truth won't do if one hasn't good self-confidence.

Let us not lie to ourselves - manipulation is at the basis of our world, and trying to manipulate no one, as I've long done, will do nothing but put one at a disadvantage. But I'm not saying it's good. Just that it's necessary sometimes. It's sad but it's the way the world works.

And thanks Lexine - a post of positiveness is always good to take.

I've been accused of being naïve, and perhaps I am.  I told my therapist what was bothering me, how I felt, what I thought I wanted and needed.  As best I could be, I was honest and open with her.  She helped me through transition, sometimes asking me questions I needed to deal with even though I didn't want to.  There was never any doubt that she would write the letter for surgery because I had grown to trust her to be honest with me, just as I was honest with her.

When I interviewed for jobs I was honest about what I was able to do and what I couldn't do or didn't like to do.  Certainly there was a little puffery – I would stress what I thought were my good points and downplay the bad, but I don't see that as manipulation.  When I was hired, it was for a job that I wanted and I was a good fit for the organization because they knew what to expect.

Manipulating someone away from harming themselves or others is different.  And you can wheedle a friend into hanging with you as long as you know when he is vacillating and when he really doesn't want to.  But I just don't see the advantage of trying to manipulate someone into doing something I think I want but is against their better judgment.

JMHO

- Kate

I just discovered how this kind of remarks can be stressful if not expected. I was having dinner with my classmates, one guy was pouring me wine, spilled it all over my hand and asked "You're not really a girl, are you?" It caught me completely off-guard, in one second I had a tornado rushing through my head, I was thinking what the hell, where did this question come from, what is the context, was it supposed to be funny or insulting, why did he pour wine on me?? Even more, the guy that knows about me was sitting next to him and watching my reaction and I panicked even more. But luckily, my reflexes were good and I could save myself with a question: "What makes you think so?" Then he explained a girl should be able to do more things at the same time (apparently I was unfocused and lost control over the hand that was holding the glass) so I could start breathing again.