QuoteA trip to Loehmann's may turn into a lawsuit for Jane Galla. She said a popular discount clothing store wouldn't allow her to use its communal changing room because she is transgender. The complaint of two incidents is now before the New York City Commission on Human Rights. City law protects transgender people, allowing them access to facilities consistent with their gender identity.

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tinkerbell

I think that this will be an issue for years to come.  If only we had not become so persnippity about such things in the first place....

What harm does it do when personilized booths are available?  In some countries, you get no choice.  

As long as TS people come off as male, there's going to be problems where restrooms and changing rooms are concerned here in the US.

Cindi

amazing huh?  Will that be good press bad press or just much needed press for the ts community?
Funny Pittsburgh effective Jan 1st is putting the non-public smoking ban into place like NY did and Philly is doing it or following suit on the other end of the state? So of course the health system is jumping head first into that one! I need the patch now, i'll really be hosing down the coffee..
Sorry what i meant was funny how these cities can throw out these changes yet when they are violated it seems an act of God is required to negate the victim!
agghhhhhhhhh
she should sue their you know what off!
Ricki

I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Bri

Quote from: Brianna on December 18, 2006, 08:52:15 PM
I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Bri

You have a point there, spacekat, and I concur with you.  Unfortunately there are many psychos out there who dress in women's clothes to assault women.  We, in fact, had an incident of that sort about a year ago at work when a man dressed in a long coat and a blonde wig entered the ladies' room and started to do things with himself in front of a few nurses.  He turned out to be a schizophrenic patient who had eluded security on his way to the patio.  So yeah, the fear is quite understandable.

tinkerbell

I disagree.  I present as female and use female facilities whether it be the bathroom or a changing room.  At least where I live both have separate stalls/booths/whatever.  I will see no more than I would if I were on the street or, at the most, on a beach.  Those who go in to assault, one way or another, already have laws that will deal with them.  I just want to make sure my purchases fit/the bladder is empty and be on my way, much like anyone else.

Where would you have me go?  The Mens room?  LOL.  I had to stop that before even going fulltime due to confusion, threats, etc.  Why should my safety be of less concern?

Again I pass pretty well so I do not have a lot of these concerns and have not had to deal with things like this (except when trying to use mens facilities before I went FT).  I do have to say that in all honesty, I would not care if an unpassable T came in to use the space unless they specifically did things that were not gender congruent.  IE.  Standing up to pee in the ladies room.

This is a tricky place... I tend to agree with Brianna, too. Laws aside, doesn't it really all come down to comfort issues? Even if a trans-woman has every legal right to use a facility, but is really giving off more a "male vibe" than female, than how can we expect ggs using a restroom etc. to be completely comfortable?

But than what... should we not use these places unless we're 100% passing? Like LostInTime said, we can't very well use a men's room.

It seems like the only option is to promote wider adoption of unisex restrooms, perhaps in addition to traditional female and male spaces.

BUT, this does only apply to those who aren't 100% passing -- which hopefully changes for the individual as the wears of HRT and surgery take over.

I don't agree that using the facilities has any connection to passing. I know a lot of GG women who are on the masculine side. Would they Pass? Then we get the restroom police involved. As far as the dressing rooms, it is a no brainer. You aren't trying on clothes with others, you are in a private area. Now, when I was dressing in male drag, women would come in the mens side for various reasons. To help the husband out or their children or the womens dressing room was full. The mens side is always empty.
  I do agree that if you are going to be female, please try to cover up your beard and at least shave. Try to be as fem. as you can.
Sheila

So we can be separate but equal?   

Sheila, good point on masculine looking women and I have met quite a few in the recent past and one actually did have some trouble using a restroom.

Quote from: Brianna on December 18, 2006, 08:52:15 PM
I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Couldn't agree more and sometimes it disheartens me to see members of our community approach these situations with a lack of sensitivity and awareness about women's needs in general.

Tinkerbell,
   That was what I was talking about. If you are going to use the facility that you are expressing yourself, well, do it and do it right. If you are female don't be shaving in the public restroom, legs, face or anything. Do what is expected of a female or a male. I do believe that we all want privacy.
Sheila

Is not the difference that between passing vs posing?  Proper transition behavior vs rude, insensitive and intrusive exhibitionism? 
One thing I feel that is overstated is the possibility of deviant behavior by some creep in the dressing room area.  Most dressing room areas are only marginally private, and certainly not isolated to where any moderate outcry wouldn't get plenty of reinforcements.  The creeps are going to act out where ever they think there can be an outcome fulfilling their warped desires, it does not matter whether it's a dark secluded alley, or a hardly isolated dressing room.  Women have a well-honed and piercing response to any surfacing of creep behavior.  There's a much bigger danger (to us) from the moronic phobia-poisoned hater, either customer or store staff.

By-the-way, store staff response is addressed in a different posting.  Perhaps they should be joined.

Susan Kay

Quote from: Sheila on December 20, 2006, 01:38:24 PM
If you are going to use the facility that you are expressing yourself, well, do it and do it right. If you are female don't be shaving in the public restroom, legs, face or anything. Do what is expected of a female or a male.

If she really needed an emrgency shave, she could have gone into a stall, sat down facing the right way and used a compact and dry shaved (that's all I do).  Definitely should have had her feet facing the fight direction.

Melissa

I see and agree with both sides?-sorry everyone is making sense here don;t you just hate when that happens....
I once entered a mall bathroom a guys one and a woman was in there with her son changing him?  I actually was not freaked out about it although the urinals were a meager few feet away?
Hmmmmmmmm
does this mean there will be a third bathroom in our futures that have an inbetween sex  symbol on it? Uggghhhhh..........
Side note what would this symbol then be?  I beg..No polls please...
ricki

Ricki,
   In Eugene, Oregon, we  have what is called family rooms. It is a one stall bathroom for families or wheel chair people who need assistance. It is a third restroom.
Sheila

hmmmm..... 
Now Sheila that is a very very novel idea..
i would think in some areas that would work just unisex rest rooms where you lock the door do your business and leave but in large areas like malls, stadiums. etc.. The 3rd room is a good idea.
Good very good add to post!
Thanks
Ricki
p.s. okay so you gotta appreciate this .......you come upon a construction site you see three green porta-potties then a foruth one a pink one who is that for? hehe........

Okay I found a clip of an interview with this transsexual woman. 




tinkerbell

My browser must suck really bad here..
I can never see some of these links posted? Darn it!
Thanks tinkerbell even thoguh i could not view it!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr........
Sweet dreams!
Ricki

My wife is handicapped and she sometimes needs help in the bathroom.  What do I do when I'm out with her en homme?  When my 4 year old granddaughter needed to go at the McDonald's I was faced with a dilemma, which one to use?

I've always maintained that behaviour should be the determining factor on acceptance in semi-private spaces.  The whacko that was shaving in the lady's room and peeing standing up should have been reported and thrown out, if not prosecuted.  Someone who has masculine features, no matter WHAT is between their legs, should be allowed to use the facilities that are appropriate to their presentation, which is just a synonym for behavior.

Single stall, unisex bathrooms should be mandated by law in all public facilities, in my opinion.  Not just so transsexuals can pee in peace but so all who don't fit the correct stereotypes can relieve themselves and go on with their lives.

helen

Quote from: HelenW on December 27, 2006, 09:09:55 PM
Someone who has masculine features, no matter WHAT is between their legs, should be allowed to use the facilities that are appropriate to their presentation, which is just a synonym for behavior.

Presentation is a set of cues you give as to your gender.  Dressing as a woman is a cue that you are female.  Shaving your face and peeing while standing are cues that are given that you are male.  You have to weigh both sets of cues and determine which set is stronger and go with that for your choice of restroom.  Typically actions and behaviors will always be much stronger cues than how you are dressed or look.  In this case, the person was giving stronger cues they were male.

Melissa