Hi All,

I went for my orthodontist appointment today wearing a the same blouse that you see in my photo.  I like the cooler weather and I was in a rush.  Anyways, when I was in the office I could not help but notice that another woman smiled at me.  That was not the first time.  That happens quite a bit.  When walking back to my car, another woman looked at me.  Okay, I do not know that as an absolute fact or the why, but I did get that impression.  That is not out of the ordinary, but commonplace.  Men never seem to notice or comment, at least from my perspective, but other women will smile at me and look at me.

What is the meaning of that?  Are they saying that I do not pass?  Are they saying something else?  Do women ordinarily smile at other women?  (I have never noticed that, but I do notice smiles directed at me.)  Are they saying: "How cute, there is a 48-year old man dressed as a woman?"

Thoughts?

I do not feel 48.  I just feel like me.

By the way, do any of you get the same reaction, or is what I am sensing just me?

Thanks in advance.

Hi sarah!

From my experience, women tend to notice each other and smile and acknowledge each other much more readily than our male counterparts. Men don't generally go around smiling at other guys due to some built-in homophobic fear of being viewed as gay or some other similar nonsense. I get smiled at too, quite a lot. Men also hold doors for me, ask how I'm doing, etc., which is completely new to me as well because as a "guy" I felt completely invisible to both sexes. Now men and women alike are acknowledging my presence with niceties like smiles and "how are you"s. You'll get used to it 

Everyone looks at other people. Whenever we find something even a bit odd, we tend to look, if not stare. Here's what often happens, when the stared notices the starer stares, in my opinion :

Man 1 stares at man 2 : Man 1 will find something kind of close to Man 2 that he could "normally" stare at. Heck, what if he thinks I'm gay ?

Man stares at woman : Man will quickly look away. He would not want to look like a pervert. Or man could also just smile at the woman, like "I'm the alpha male, you're the poor female. You interest me." if the man is macho.

Woman stares at man : Woman will act indifferent. She would not want the man to think she's interested. Unless she is. She could also smile at him in a "why are YOU looking at me?" way.

Woman 1 stares at woman 2 : Woman 1 will smile, as if she had been intending to greet woman 2 from the beginning, while still observing woman 2.

Women are just like that, I think. As for the reason why she was looking at you from the beginning, it may be that she clocked you, but looking at your picture, I do not think so (unless you purposely walk and talk manly, haha). It may just be because she was looking at your clothing, or your haircut, or searching for what the orthodontist was going to do for you. Or maybe she just happens to be the kind of person who smiles at people.

In any case, unless you obviously do not pass [which, I assure you, does not appear at all on your picture], you should not worry about it too much.

Women smile at each other, like the men do the head nod thing.  It is a way of greeting each other.

I wouldn't read any more in to it than it is a greeting.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 22, 2010, 02:22:09 PM
Women smile at each other, like the men do the head nod thing.  It is a way of greeting each other.

I wouldn't read any more in to it than it is a greeting.

Exactly. It's just what women do. We look each other in the eye and give a friendly smile. I think you should pass just fine. 

In the city in which I live, no one acknowledges one another. Especially while using public transit... everyone's surly. Seriously, we have a bit of a reputation for being kind of cold to each other. Yet for some reason, we are seen as friendly. Hahaha, the male head-nod; a classic jesture. Nowadays, I do smile and get smiles back from other women, though not with any regularity.

Hi,

Thanks for that.  I am still getting used to being female, even though I am one.  I was mistaking passing with not.  I guess these things are taught by one's mother to the daughter or by other girlfriends that I having been born and raised not as a girl, just do not know.

I know that I am very sensitive to whether I pass or not.    Maybe that is because I still need work on my hair and am pre-op, not to mention was born male.  It should not bother me, but having male anything directed at me usually ticks me off and rubs me the wrong way.  I guess that I will start feeling better, when I no longer have to use a men's locker room at the health club.

Personally, I think that my face looks quite male-ish, but then I know myself all my life and I know my past.

Thanks for the help.  I will start smiling at other women now.  I wonder what else I should know that I do not or what I am doing wrong.

It is hard to imagine doing anything harder in life than conquering one's own fear and changing gender.  I can imagine that changing gender in school, even today, is quite traumatic and joyful.

Cheers,

Sarah

Hi Samantha,

I really like your tag line: "25 years old, but only 12 in puberty".  In many ways I really see myself as a teenager and at others my real age.  Whereas many people develop and grow, I never got that chance, since I was stuck in limbo.  Things that gg go through in puberty, I am going through now, albeit at a slow pace.  There are the physical developments too, although I am paused at the moment with hormones, but I do work on my voice, electrology, and getting my hair back.

Great tag line. :-)

You look lovely honey. From your pic I can't see why you would have any trouble passing. I think that top is gorgeous.

As Janet mentioned, it's just how women greet each other... It took awhile for me to get use to also  But now I just smile back

If anything it means you are passing just fine 

In the woman's restrooms women will not only smile but often chit chat with you too.
And I really enjoy it. 
Jillieann

Do women ordinarily smile at other women?

Yes!

Sarah, it means you're being included in the female inner circle. You're accepted as belonging, it's a testament to how well you present yourself.

Nicky:  It is too bad that you are not here in L.A. and tell that to a person in my family, who goes ballistic seeing me in that blouse.  I like it.

The problem is that I get mixed feedback.  I would say that about half the time people call me by female names and the rest I get sired.  Yes, small photos hide stuff.  My forehead and hair both say male.  I also have hair on my arms, which does not help.  If I were to get ma'amed all the time, then I would feel better, but I do hear sir.  The lack of support inside the home does not help either.



Virginia Marie (and others):  I just got back from dinner, but while driving to eat, I was thinking on this topic.  I should be happy, since I now know that a smile is what other women do to greet each other and I have wanted to pass as a woman for my entire life.  I should be on top of the world, but that is far from the case.  I am alone in many ways.  I have the pain and anger of wanting something.  That is hard to just let go, especially when I see the opposite too.  I keep being reminded that I have a male body, okay not fully but still a lot.



Jilieanne:  I only was in the women's restroom at work a few times and that was last year.  That was my first and only time so far.  I enjoyed it.  It was calming, believe it or not.  I tried to pick times, when others were not in, but that is hard to predict.  One woman started to talk to me, which was nice.  I did not get any negative remarks then.  I then was asked to work from home and got laid off, so that took care of that.

The other time that I went to the women's restroom, at a local Macy's, was about a couple of months ago.  I went with a family member, who forced me to go in a men's polo shirt.  I hesitate to say transphobic, although that is the word that comes to mind, but maybe embarassed and religiously conflicted would be better words.  Still, I had to go ot the bathroom, so I sent her on her way to do something else.  I asked where the bathroom was.  I was in a men's polo shirt and had listened to "him" and my male name for however long before hand, so I was assuming that even God would speak to me as Arnold Schwarzenneger, ultra male.  I asked one employee and I was directed to the women's restroom on the 2nd floor.  I figured that maybe the men's restroom was there, but I thought that it was on the 3rd floor.  I asked three other people on both floors and I got told the same thing.  I was then on the 3rd floor and I seriouisly had to go.  A 25 year old woman stopped me and asked if she could help.  I asked where the restroom was and she said that I have to go down to the second floor and look underneath water sign.  After the fifth time, I went like a bullet to the second floor.  Thankfully the restroom was empty, but I guessed that I passed.  That incident floored me, although since then I hear male too.

I should probably add another topic about how to find a trans group here in my area.  It seems that L.A. is not the trans anything, at least in my area.  An online group is nice, but I still hear only myself and see myself.


JohnR:  I guess it does, slowly but surely.  I have to see myself that way and that is hard.  I keep seeing (and feeling) the male parts of me (between my legs), my male voice, and more important than body parts, my past, and it is hard to move beyond that.  Is it easier for F2M or is it the same there?  Chaz seems to be doing fine, but that I presume is mostly show and tell, not inside the home and real feelings.  The home situation is not helping matters any either.  Nobody would believe that story.  I do not believe it.

Without any feedback when interactions / inclusiveness happens, it is hard to know that happens, especially now at the beginning.  I keep hearing both positive and negative comments (especially at home) and not growing up as a girl and knowing those traits makes it hard to know that I am, if that makes sense.  I was a girl in my heart but being a girl in real life and society is different than being a girl in my heart, at least for me.  It does not help that I get to use men's locker rooms at the health club and other similar problems.

I keep pushing as best that I can.

Thanks all. :-)

Here is an example of why I am always afraid to use any restroom in public, especially the women's restroom.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7804014

Thsi woman, Majanae Chambers, looks to me like a normal female.  Her face is even quite feminine looking.  I can see why she gets harassed in a men's restroom.  That did not stop the police arresting her for using the women's restroom in a public library in Houston, Texas.  Granted that Texas is a Republican stronghold and home to the GOP, but even Republicans have transgendered individuals.  Besides, the mayor of Houston according to the article passed a non-discrimination policy including transgendered individuals and still she got arrested.

That being said, could not the same thing happen here in Los Angeles or anywhere else?

He, he, he although out the report.  Get it right you jackwagon.  It is she.

And who really gives a sh!t what the Houston Area Pastor Council wants, they can kiss my grits.

LOL. It is a greet and as for the bathroom? I use the ladies room.
The last time I was dressed as a guy, I went to the mens room.
The guy at the urinal QUICKLY stopped his flow, tucked himself away and said
"Umm Maam, I think your in the wrtong bathroom".
Hehehehe.
Last time I ever went in there.

Cant use the urinals any more though 

could not the same thing happen here in Los Angeles or anywhere else

Other places perhaps, but not LA.  It happens in Houston because people care about silly things.  In LA people only care about money, the Dodgers, and themselves - which is an ideal situation.  Except for the Dodger thing of course.

You're learning that "passing" is not binary. It's not just that you pass with some people and not with others, but for each person you pass to a certain level. We assign a gender at an unconscious level the moment we see a person, and the pronouns we use typically match that assignment. But there are many other levels of passing, so there are probably people who unconsciously gender you male but can't do so consciously, or vice versa.

The smile women share indicates, to me, some combination of politeness, warmth, and mutual recognition of safety and solidarity against the dangers of a male world; it also often goes with a sizing up, a reckoning of the social hierarchy, a mutual determination of who is prettier. (Oh, you bet that's part of it. If you're not doing that now, you will soon enough. Female kinship is just as powerful, supportive, and brutal as male camaraderie; the main difference for me is that I get along much better in the female version.) With so much meaning passed in that smile (just as with the male head-nod that Janet mentioned), is it any wonder that you might be getting mixed signals?

Yes, it's absolutely a kind of passing, but there are so many kinds. Pronouns are one of the last things to work out. These days I find I'm welcome in women's locker rooms, I'm invited to girls' nights out, guys I've just met give me the "don't worry, I'm not hitting on you; just being a nice guy, nothing creepy" hug after just one or two meetings -- or actually they hit on me (though I much prefer when lesbians and bi girls do that  ) -- and still it's not quite passing, not the way I want to pass, because the same people will every now and then drop a male pronoun, often without even realizing they've done it. Someone I've known for a few months did that to me a few weeks ago, very clearly said "his" where she ought to have said "her"; I mentioned it and she didn't believe that she had even said that.

Welcome to the land of liminal gender. On behalf of all the forum members here at Susan's, I would like to wish you a pleasant stay, and a speedy and safe journey to wherever your final destination might be.

Hi,

juliemac:  I would love that to happen to me.  Did that make your day, when the guy told you "ma'am, you are in the wrong restroom"?  That would have definitely put a smile on my face all day long.

tekla:  My family is crazy for the Dodgers and I could care less about baseball.  In earlier years, even through my twenties, I would get asked to go to see the Dodgers, and I would refuse.  I went to a couple of games, and I could care less.  I did not like the hotdogs either.  I rather go for a nice Italian or Mexican dinner.  They stopped asking me eventually.

Sadly, many women love sports, especially the Lakers.  I rather go to a woman's club and just chat.  I got dragged to a Laker's game once.  I rather go to the dentist and get my teeth cleaned. :-)

I agree about people caring about themselves here in Los Angeles.  People are ULTRA self-centered.  Most people do not even know their neighbors.  Los Angeles is the opposite of Whisteria Lane (think Desperate Housewives).

Smallville will end this year. :-( :-( :-(  Chloe is not on this season either, only for a few episodes. :-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(


Alyssas:  Thanks for the warm and friendly comment. :-)  I did not know about the various levels, but that makes sense and goes along with how I am perceiving the situation.  I pass at some level, but not on the biologically born female level, not even close.  People feel comfortable with me, and do not think of me as male, per se, so that is a start.

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speedy and safe journey to wherever your final destination might be.

If we get to the point, where I can take an adult stem cell of mine, grow a uterus along with all the other plumbing, get it implanted, and literally have to worry about getting pregnant, then we are definitely making progress towards the final destination.  I would not mind a female set of vocal chords too.  How is that for a destination?

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it also often goes with a sizing up, a reckoning of the social hierarchy, a mutual determination of who is prettier. (Oh, you bet that's part of it. If you're not doing that now, you will soon enough. Female kinship is just as powerful, supportive, and brutal as male camaraderie; the main difference for me is that I get along much better in the female version.)

I am doing that now, just I was not realizing that until recently.  I mistook attraction (which I am attracted to females, hence bi), but more over I look to see what they have that I do not (prettier breasts, hips, etc.)   I understand that part. I have a long way to go, before I can win any beauty pageant competing with genetic women in a competition, where nobody would know that I am trans.