My wife is handicapped and she sometimes needs help in the bathroom.  What do I do when I'm out with her en homme?  When my 4 year old granddaughter needed to go at the McDonald's I was faced with a dilemma, which one to use?


Helen,
   I know that in the state of Oregon and I don't know if this is true in anyother state, but if you have a person who needs help and you are the opposite gender you can use any facility to care for this person. Now, for your 4 yr old granddaughter, I would have just taken her into the mens room as you personified yourself as male. I did that with my daughter when she was young and my wife did it with our son too.
Sheila

Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 12:57:49 PM
Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Hmm, perhaps a fulltime crossdresser?  You would think if they were actually "trying", they would have learned a little something about presentation in those last 3 and a half years. 

Melissa

Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Steph

Quote from: Melissa on December 28, 2006, 11:58:07 AM
  Typically actions and behaviors will always be much stronger cues than how you are dressed or look. 

As much as I wish this were true, and actions and behaviours are an important part of presentation, it's not the typical manner in which people first determine one's gender. The only time behaviour can tip the gender scale is when one looks fairly androgynous to begin with.
Ex: Picture Marilyn Monroe dressed as and behaving as male - think someone's going to mistake her for a man?

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 02:11:28 PM
Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Exactly my thoughts.

Melissa

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 02:11:28 PM
Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Steph

Steph,
I think I missed something here. She has dress and has presented herself as female for over 3 years. She is a female, whether or not she has had surgery or not. She has been discriminated against and she should be allowed to use the facilities at that store. It is open to the public and it is under public juresdiction. I do believe that the city of New York does have a Gender Identity clause in there ordinance.
Sheila

I think we're getting confused here.  I was only talking about the person Tinkerbell had mentioned.  Not the woman in the article.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on December 28, 2006, 01:13:50 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 12:57:49 PM
Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Hmm, perhaps a fulltime crossdresser?  You would think if they were actually "trying", they would have learned a little something about presentation in those last 3 and a half years. 

Melissa

Melissa,
  I think we were all talking about the article that Tinkerbell had put into this posting. Now, I could not use the you tube thing, but I don't believe that is what Steph was talking about anyway. The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on December 28, 2006, 05:50:18 PM
... The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Hmmmm, are we saying that if a person dresses as a woman for three years, then that makes them a woman in every respect, even without a diagnosis.  So a cross-dresser should be afforded all the rights of a woman... It's a strange world...

Steph

This thread got interesting..
I did not see the guy/lady but given that she was supposedly "dressed" as a woman i guess either restroom would of presented a situation then; had she gone into the mens room there may have been some guys in there offended same as the ladies room?
wonder how passable she was, but trying to see all points i guess that is not the big issue "her passability"..
so since she was a ->-bleeped-<- she should of used the guys room?
i dunno not sure how to call this one?
Where are those little portable johnnies when you need one! hehe...
Ricki

No one has said this person is a ->-bleeped-<-, a cross-dresser, a TS or whatever, it just isn't clear in the story.  I was merely stating that should this be a cross-dresser that I didn't think that they should be treated as a woman.

Steph

sorry i assumed she/he was a ->-bleeped-<->
(oh goodness now what happens when Ricki assumes, we all know.... )
  Lack of info on my part so anyway she/he's somewhere in the gender spectrum we would guess right?
I would not disagree with your statement at all Steph.. Guess it still goes back to which John to use?
Interesting....
ricki

Quote from: Ricki on December 28, 2006, 08:06:03 PM
sorry i assumed she/he was a ->-bleeped-<->
(oh goodness now what happens when Ricki assumes, we all know.... )
  Lack of info on my part so anyway she/he's somewhere in the gender spectrum we would guess right?
I would not disagree with your statement at all Steph.. Guess it still goes back to which John to use?
Interesting....
ricki

Ya nut

Steph

Okay, now I am the one who is confused and I posted the article

Sheila:  I think that what Melissa was trying to say is that the woman from the article and the woman I saw at the movie theater are two different people. 

Steph:  You are right, none of the articles I have read says whether this person is a TS, a TV, or a crossdresser.  All the articles labeled her as a "transgender person who has lived as a woman for 3 1/2 years".

However, under NY law, discrimination against transgender individuals is prohibited.  See link

Quote from: linkThe city's Human Rights Law was amended in April 2002 to broaden the scope of protection from gender discrimination by defining "gender" to include actual or perceived sex, as well as a "person's gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior or expression, whether or not that gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior or expression is different from that traditionally associated with the legal sex assigned to that person at birth."

The link further says:

QuoteEven when the guidelines are implemented, Park and Spade are concerned that they will be watered down. At issue are the differences between pre-op., post-op. and non-op. transgender people in the eyes of the law. While post-op. male-to-female transgender people are considered legally women, others, like Park, who choose not to have an operation, can face harassment and abuse in choosing a restroom or applying for a driver's license.

tinkerbell

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 28, 2006, 08:38:59 PM
Sheila:  I think that what Melissa was trying to say is that the woman from the article and the woman I saw at the movie theater are two different people. 

Exactly.

Melissa

If a person is a cross dresser or a pre-op TS or a post-op TS or a flat chested natal woman with a brow ridge how can you tell?  Should there be a bathroom police officer at the door to check your genitals, chromosomes, whatever?  If Mr Wobbly and his two friends are still there how can I prove I'm NOT a cross dresser?

The only thing that can be equitably used in this kind of situation is behaviour.  I do not deserve to be told to go pee in the bushes because I don't fit a stereotype.

All I want to do is pee in peace.
helen

I saw this news report. This woman needed to be shopping for a STRAIGHTENING IRON and not clothes.

Seriously. Barf.

Quote from: Brianna on December 28, 2006, 10:50:11 PM
I saw this news report. This woman needed to be shopping for a STRAIGHTENING IRON and not clothes.

Seriously. Barf.

ROFL

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 06:29:37 PM

Quote from: Sheila on December 28, 2006, 05:50:18 PM
... The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Hmmmm, are we saying that if a person dresses as a woman for three years, then that makes them a woman in every respect, even without a diagnosis.  So a cross-dresser should be afforded all the rights of a woman... It's a strange world...

Steph

How is a store woriker going to distinguish between a crossdresser and a transgender ?? Do the TG's now need to carry a sign about their person to use the facilies ??

The girl in the video whether she has seen a doctor or not was as far as I am concerned a female. She should be allowed to use the rest rooms and any other facilities she needs.