Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Dying of curiosity, I submitted the question to Google.

Yahoo's answer: Six. One to write the procedure, another to test it, three to sign off on it and another to revise it again.

from http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1:
None, engineers don't do manual labor, that the tech's job.

from http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914:
None, if it is manufactured correctly.

Click and Clack are supposed to have the definitive answer, but it's imbedded in a track on their CD.

Simone

Quote from: Simone Louise on February 20, 2008, 04:26:05 PM

Quote from: Rebis on February 19, 2008, 08:11:42 PM
How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Dying of curiosity, I submitted the question to Google.

Yahoo's answer: Six. One to write the procedure, another to test it, three to sign off on it and another to revise it again.

from http://forums.myspace.com/t/994330.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewthread&SortOrder=1:
None, engineers don't do manual labor, that the tech's job.

from http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=5914:
None, if it is manufactured correctly.

Click and Clack are supposed to have the definitive answer, but it's imbedded in a track on their CD.

Simone

*bow* Your google-fu is strong. I appreciate you finding the answer to this age old riddle. It was driving me nuts, and I was too lazy to look it up.

you said "google-fu"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  I love it!  I'm going to use that...

I have known since very early childhood,
I felt like a girl and later on I began having an interest in boys...
so I identify as a straight girl/woman now.
Of this I have no doubts.

However. Of course I am not a normal woman.
I cannot really be the woman I feel that I am,
so I have for this moment, chosen to do hormone therapy only,
and not the sex change operation.

I would choose a totally female body though if I had the chance,
but because I am quite sensitive, it's better for me to stay this
way for now, for I am not sure if I will be able to accept the fact that I am not
a normal woman when I am post op. For now I am staying
in the safest place to be, for me.

xx
Birgit

I hadn't read this one until just now. It was nice to just read through and not have all the labels clogging up an Androgyne discussion. So much of it just rings so true. Like a light switch. Going from black and white to color....

I guess my enlightenment really didn't take off until I found Susan's. The process continues.

We are definitely colorful.  The unicorn forest is bright.

Realised when i was on hormones i was just kidding myself that i was TS, yeah i love wearing womens clothes, shopping and my girly nights in with my wife, but i also love playing footy with the kids down  the street, beer, gambling and being a husband to my wife in the bedroom department, even if i am normally tarted up at the time lol Just think nowadays there is a very fine line between what is female and male as the sexes seem to be getting closer together.

I refuse to answer this question until somebody explains me with all certainity what is a man and what is a woman.
Until after that, I'll know which ones do I fit better, if any.

I seem to have fallen in the "everybody is a closet androgyne" bandwagon lately.

I think I understand the differences between men and women when we are talking about sex. Gender ID is one I wrestle with. In some ways, I am shelly's opposite, though I still understand the wrestling. Ftms write about going into stealth mode after surgery; I've been in stealth mode all my life. I have always been sure that I am not a boy/man and fearful that others will find me out. I hate Halloween and never went out for dramatics and maybe it is because I feel that I am masquerading everyday. I was also afraid to have a son, because I wouldn't know how to bring him up to be a man (Indeed, I understand my first wife warned him he might grow up to be like me if he didn't toe her line).

At the same time, I have never felt a great need to wear women's clothing outside the home or when I am not alone. I get no sexual high from it. Nor do I tolerate the restricted choice of color and style in men's clothing, so I do some mixing. I occasionally share a beer with my wife, but hate gambling. I don't play sports, though I enjoy hiking, kayaking, and bicycling. I enjoy the foreplay  with my wife more than the actual penetration (with my ADD, I always run the risk of being distracted). I do like hugs.

When I most miss looking like a woman are times like yesterday when I had a delightful lunch with my wife and six women from our synagogue.  I feel this is the only place where I can say that and hope someone can relate to what I say. The unicorn forest is not only bright, but friendly.

S

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 15, 2010, 02:48:56 PM
I refuse to answer this question until somebody explains me with all certainity what is a man and what is a woman.
Until after that, I'll know which ones do I fit better, if any.

I seem to have fallen in the "everybody is a closet androgyne" bandwagon lately.

Well, logically there is only one man and one woman. Everyone else is somewhere in between. You would have to talk to those two to find out the true meaning. It's kind of like asking an Androgyne what the exact definition is.
I just assume that the ranges of binaries overlap the ranges of Androgynes. How much overlap is subjective to the person in that overlap. That's a tough place to be in.

I thought there was someone new on the bandwagon! What section did you happen to fall in? 

Quote from: ativan on December 15, 2010, 11:51:29 PM
Well, logically there is only one man and one woman. Everyone else is somewhere in between. You would have to talk to those two to find out the true meaning. It's kind of like asking an Androgyne what the exact definition is.
I just assume that the ranges of binaries overlap the ranges of Androgynes. How much overlap is subjective to the person in that overlap. That's a tough place to be in.

I thought there was someone new on the bandwagon! What section did you happen to fall in? 

logically?
logically anything with a penis should be a man, and we know this isn't true.
If you were meaning statistically, then this too presents a problem: This one "100% man" would be so far off from normal experience as to be completely alien to around 90% of everybody else (bell curve?)
The same thing happens with people with a really high intelligence. They tend to be weirdos.

Also, I have a certain idea of what's the behavioral differences, and for some reason, I have a small idea of what the mental processes are like, because of hormones, unfortunately this doesn't prove with any degree of certainty that what I know is correct for any given male or female, furthermore, the biological processes do not answer the question of what is a man.

Finally, I'm located in the last car, I choose the window, because the other androgynes in here are very distracting with their colorfulness.

PS, All I know is that I want to be like a gentlelady, which is like a proper lady with all the chivalry of a gentleman.

I don't know whether to post this here or in the thread asking for male/female percentages. Like ZZ, I am looking for definitions. The evidence of being female doesn't square with the many of the females most important in my life.

I've been married twice, and neither wife used any makeup except on very special occasions (formal portraits, their own marriages). Both shun high heels. My mother wore only lipstick always, and wore high heels even when hiking to the bottom of a canyon in Yellowstone National Park. My wife does shave, but I have very little body hair anywhere except for on the head and between the legs. My wife is no help with my long hair, because hers has always been short. I do have a daughter who thought briefly of becoming a cosmetician, before she started teaching high school Spanish. Another daughter with aspirations for a career in the theater does have enough of that stuff to open her own store.

My family has been anti-war, anti-hunting, and anti-gun for four or five generations, at least, but I suppose that is not uncommon among Jews. My wife was the sports editor of her college newspaper and takes sports more seriously than I. She also feels she could do a better job than most sports commentators. My wife invariably asks me what she should wear (especially when the setting will not allow her to wear pants), and I admit to being pretty fashion illiterate. She is addicted to cop shows centering on rape and domestic violence, those tries to avoid shows or scenes with graphic violence. She chides me for watching "sappy" love stories. She firmly self-identifies as female in gender, but can't grasp why I, or anyone other male-bodied person, would want to be female. My wife said she wanted me to bear our child, and I would have liked to, but didn't have a clue how to proceed. I do miss having that experience.

We seem to agree that the tests we have taken do not accurately measure gender, but how do we know what is male and what is female? How do I trust my conviction that I am female (completely or partially), when I pick and choose from among the stereotypes?

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on December 16, 2010, 07:05:34 PMHow do I trust my conviction that I am female (completely or partially), when I pick and choose from among the stereotypes?

Everyone experiences this differently. So I think basing a conviction on stereotypes is unwise. Probably genderidentity is something of the soul, not behavior or looks.

I am stereotype female in almost every way (except for the fact that I am non op)...I know a lot of post op TS, that are very masculine and tell me I am a man because I haven't had surgery. 

(but I don't care, I know who and what I am)

I think my "enlightenment" was early, but I lost sight and had to find it again. I recall when I was very young telling my babysitter I was "half boy". She said she thought that too when she was young, but as she got older realized that was impossible and assured me I was 100% female.

I dislike segregating things into male and female interests/activities/dispositions, and I generally try not to say I am an androgyne because of my any of these things. Growing up there was always a peculiar feeling present when I would put on a dress or spend time with a group of females. I was always uncomfortable. Something wasn't right, and I felt like an imposter posing as a female, worse I felt like everyone could see it and everyone knew.

I noticed I related a lot better with males. However, the older I got the more I realized I couldn't fully relate with them either. I had had extended thoughts for a period of time about taking testosterone, binding my boobs and in general living as a guy, but the thought of growing facial and body hair disgusted me as well as some of the other general expectations of a man. I wasn't a guy.

Somehow I came full circle and realized neither side suits me. As much as I tried I couldn't suppress either half of myself. The harder I tried to be a man the more my inner femme rebelled and vice versa. The best I can explain it the way I feel inside is, well, both and neither. That probably makes no sense. How I'm comfortable and who I am can't really fall into a gender category. I don't like being treated like a lady or a dude or really viewed as either. My body is obviously female (which I both like and dislike), but my mind is something entirely different.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 16, 2010, 12:47:44 PM
logically?
logically anything with a penis should be a man, and we know this isn't true.
If you were meaning statistically, then this too presents a problem: This one "100% man" would be so far off from normal experience as to be completely alien to around 90% of everybody else (bell curve?)
The same thing happens with people with a really high intelligence. They tend to be weirdos.

Also, I have a certain idea of what's the behavioral differences, and for some reason, I have a small idea of what the mental processes are like, because of hormones, unfortunately this doesn't prove with any degree of certainty that what I know is correct for any given male or female, furthermore, the biological processes do not answer the question of what is a man.

Finally, I'm located in the last car, I choose the window, because the other androgynes in here are very distracting with their colorfulness.

PS, All I know is that I want to be like a gentlelady, which is like a proper lady with all the chivalry of a gentleman.

1. then it wouldn't be logical then.
2. better put than how i attempted to put it.
3. entirely a matter of perspective.
4. I couldn't agree more
5. That was you who took my seat???

Quote from: ativan on December 20, 2010, 10:48:57 PM
1. then it wouldn't be logical then.

precisely what I said, however people have a tendency to say that they're more logical than average. I haven't found a decent proof of how logical somebody is; I only know that it's really hard to have everybody know the same things, and thus, reach the same conclusions. It's so bad that I'm even doubting the possibility of human logic.

Quote2. better put than how i attempted to put it.

thanks :3

Quote3. entirely a matter of perspective.

if you're different than most, you're a weirdo.

Quote5. That was you who took my seat???

No, that was the other dolphin.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on December 21, 2010, 05:47:07 PM
precisely what I said, however people have a tendency to say that they're more logical than average. I haven't found a decent proof of how logical somebody is; I only know that it's really hard to have everybody know the same things, and thus, reach the same conclusions. It's so bad that I'm even doubting the possibility of human logic.thanks :3
if you're different than most, you're a weirdo.
No, that was the other dolphin.