I have been very interested in some of the replies left on simone louise thread "some dont look the part" to hear comments like "kicks my dysphoria into hight gear" is very reassuring to someone like me, who at times feels like i am the only one on this planet who feels this way. At times months can pass and i feel almost normal, as if i am "cured" then out of the blue and like a bolt of lightening "she" returns and believe you me it can be something as stupid as a character on a nintendo wii console, who in my words has the perfect breasts that i want and as nine times out of ten i will see this character as soon as i enter the shop floor to start work, i find over time i am having "mental talks" with this thing. I must sound crazy as after all this is some kind of cartoon character i am talking about, but at times these images haunt and tease me.

Working in a supermarket i see an awfull lot of people in the course of my day and most days i am oblivious to what is going on around me, but yet again every now and then a certain female may catch my eye and i find myself transfixed, wishing i could look like her. The incidents i have mentioned are normally triggers for a spell of dysporia depression, most times its not too bad and after a few weeks it seems to disappear, however every now and then the depression gets severe to the point of thinking my wife and family would be better off without me and wishing i was dead. I would say on average i get 3 or 4 spells like this a year, although last year was really bad.

I am just wondering if anyone can relate to where i am coming from and how do you cope? Its taken me years  to realise exactly what i am and what i need to do to right the things i believe are wrong, but the emotional fallout which sometimes comes with having GID i do sometimes have trouble managing

I know that one of my biggest triggers has to do with certain thoughts. I catch myself thinking them, and then soon after that i find myself in girl mode (i'm bi-gender). There may be others, but that's the one that does it pretty much every time.

Yes, i know about the "mental talks" too. I have them quite regularly with "her". It sounds weird, but it keeps the peace.

Hi Shelly,
The things you're describing about seeing women or images of women and feeling pangs of envy are very common in cis women. Women see these things and instantly feel bad because their breasts aren't big enough, their butt isn't big enough, their legs aren't long enough, etc
But I understand it's different in your case because your body isn't female, while they wish they had 'more' of what they already got.

Sex is a big trigger for me ... for a long time I thought I was asexual b/c I just didn't want to have sex.  It has gotten better with a strap on but I still hate my body for days after. 

Having my period triggers me into disphoria too

For me, there have been two big ones in recent years:

• I was taking finasteride for an enlarged prostrate and my breasts started growing. I, then, had to deal with my delight and excitement.
• My synagogue had a service and discussion of transgender issues and discrimination. The rabbi handed out half a dozen pages of information, including definitions of relevant terms. Gender queer was one; androgyne was not. I was able to speak in favor of equal rights for transexuals, but not to say that, as an androgyne, I would like to see that term added. After that, my inner conversation reached a fever pitch, and transgender thoughts  continue to dominate my quiet moments.

S

Shelly you are not alone.  I have written about what you experience as it relates to my experiences.  However this is probably the most controversial thing I've written on the subject of GID so I apologize in advance if I inadvertently derail your thread.

QuoteIt is important to make note that all information detailed further applies only to my own understanding of GID. Some of the things I have written will fit for some dysphorics while others may feel my experiences to be completely foreign. Understand one thing though. With an identity issue, self-justification is of paramount importance. Challenging a person's identity regardless of whether it is real or perceived is walking into dangerous territory for any individual. This goes doubly so for dealing with a person with an actual identity disorder like GID. Blanketly applying that which I have written to another person with GID is fraught with the possibility of alienating the person you are trying to understand. As such, take this for what it is worth, the experience of one person and what he has learned about his own gender dysphoria.

GID operates very similarly to a phobia. Just as phobias have triggers and are negatively reinforced by responding to them, so too is gender dysphoria. For an example take arachnophobia. This is an irrational and overwhelming fear of spiders. For the arachnophobe, interaction with a spider or spider like creature serves as the trigger which provokes the distress. The phobic individual then seeks to relieve the stress by fleeing from (or sometimes squashing) the spider. This behavior only further reinforces (strengthens) the desire to flee from the spider rather than be comfortable in its presence (the desired goal for the phobic individual). Only by being forced repeatedly and consistently to confront the spider and remain in its presence long enough to obtain some relief does one unlearn the connection that relief from the spider only comes by retreating from it.

This example works also with GID. Gender dysphoric feelings often have a trigger. For many dysphoric males, a trigger could be seeing a group of young girls at a restaurant laughing and enjoying "girl" time together. This scene provokes unhappy feelings of envy and sadness in the dysphoric male in that he is reminded of the life he feels he should have had and has been denied.

The feelings of gender dysphoria begin to come on very strongly as the dysphoric's mind leaps into a cycle blaming one depressive attribute after another on the fact that he is male while at the same time romanticizing the idea that being female would bring relief from such pains. Just as with the arachnophobic, the relief from the trigger seems to come from escaping the problem. The arachnophobic flees the scene while the dysphoric fantasizes about being the other sex reinforcing the idea that his sex is the source of his woes while being the other sex would alleviate them.

It is important to note that triggers are not limited to external events. For most people with gender dysphoria their own bodies – even their reflection in a mirror can be a great source of discomfort. In addition to this body dysmorphia, triggers can also include statements or impressions held or made by others. The female gender dysphoric doesn't want to hear how "pretty" or "feminine" she is no more than the male gender dysphoric wants to be compared to other males. Sometimes even the act of referring to the dysphoric by a gender-specific title like Mister or Miss is enough to provoke a rage of dysphoric feelings in the individual.

Unfortunately for gender dysphorics, there is rarely ever only one trigger and to make matters worse, one trigger can take on a life of its own. To use my example, what may start as a trigger related to girls laughing in a restaurant may be generalized to include seeing a girl at a restaurant then eventually generalize to such a degree that even the sight of a restaurant provokes unwanted dysphoric feelings. It isn't hard to see how for the dysphoric, even living every day life can become debilitating.

In order to alleviate these dysphoric feelings provoked by these triggers, most people with GID take steps to assume, at least in private, the life of the other sex. They may find relief dressing as the other sex, fantasizing about being the other sex, interacting with others anonymously – such as in an internet chat room – as a person of the other sex, or by engaging materials that allow them to escape from their current sex. This is a vicious cycle however. Since doing cross-gender activities relieves the dysphoria, the individual becomes reliant upon them to stave off depression.

Unfortunately, merely "pretending" to be the other sex is not "being" the other sex and can lead to greater and greater efforts to live life as the other sex. In a cruel irony, even these acts of relief can become their own source of gender dysphoria. For example the male dysphoric who looks at himself in the mirror dressed to the nines realizes he is still only a male in female clothing and not the girl he'd always hoped to be which, in turn, further provokes his gender dysphoria.

This cycle, if left to itself, can only intensify dysphoric feelings until eventually they can become unbearable for the individual leaving them desperately seeking relief but running out of ways to cope. Eventually, this cycle and the depression it brings leads to only one unavoidable conclusion, "transition or die."

Please let me know if you can relate to any of this, and I'll post the rest of the article about how I've worked to identify and neutralize my triggers as a way to cope with my GID.

It's interesting that you liken GID to a phobia; the best way to overcome a phobia (such as spiders) is exposure therapy, where one is slowly exposed to increasing levels of their 'trigger' until the person becomes completely desensitised to it (i.e. starting out with pictures of cartoon spiders, slowly migrating up to pictures of real spiders, then introducing the person to a room with a spider in it and bringing them closer to the spider).

Have you in any way considered this as an approach to curing GID?

Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 08:24:14 PM
It's interesting that you liken GID to a phobia; the best way to overcome a phobia (such as spiders) is exposure therapy, where one is slowly exposed to increasing levels of their 'trigger' until the person becomes completely desensitised to it (i.e. starting out with pictures of cartoon spiders, slowly migrating up to pictures of real spiders, then introducing the person to a room with a spider in it and bringing them closer to the spider).

Have you in any way considered this as an approach to curing GID?

I use the same approach dealing with my own triggers.  I'll try to use the spider analogy. 

1) Once I identify something that makes me dysphoric (maybe a new kind of spider),
2) I avoid the trigger temporarily while I get a plan together (I don't allow myself to experience the fear from the spider until I'm ready to really confront it - otherwise I'd just be making the fear worse). 
3) Then, in a controlled way, I try to expose myself to the same environment or stimulus that provoked the trigger (I look for the spider again and prepare to be in its presence).
4) Then I try to do something to create a positive experience while in the presence of the trigger (I make fun of the spider's silly legs or talk about how cute and fuzzy it is).
5) I do this over and over again until I no longer feel the effects of the dysphoria from the trigger.  (I keep practicing thinking silly, fun things about the spider until seeing it stops provoking a fear response).

It isn't a cure, the GID is still there, but after a trigger is neutralized there is one less thing that causes me to feel dysphoric.  Having the clarity of mind to not continuously be assaulted by triggers has allowed me increasing freedom from the crushing prison of GID.

If there were a way to turn me into one of the guys in beer or truck ads, I would be distressed and depressed--big time. A phobia, to me, is something to be overcome. My feminine nature, on the other hand, is my core. Yes, it creates problems, but it also includes what I like about myself. I want to identify, emphasize, and express my positive aspects, while developing strategies that let me function effectively.

Rather than a phobia, I see it as akin to another side of my personality that has given me untold grief. I couldn't put a name on it, but there were a series of behaviors most people may be familiar with, but that in me can simply make me dysfunctional. Easily distractible, I can be talking with someone, when suddenly a thought grabs my imagination; I develop a faraway look; and lose track of the conversation. I go into another room, instantly forgetting why. I lose things. Being late is common. I can only read a book, study a course, or work on a project when keenly interested. Once I grasp the author's intent, I may never be able to pick up the book again. Deadlines are my downfall. When I did become engrossed in a project, I was so oblivious to my surroundings that my mother took me to have my hearing checked.

In high school, my condition was diagnose as petit mal convulsions, and I was put on drugs that had me falling asleep during school. My counselor in college told me that the erratic nature of my grades, sometimes excellent, sometimes failing, was an indication I hated my parents (Funny! That's what my mother said: "How can you do this to me?"). When I was 60, a counselor diagnosed it as ADD, the dreamy kind--usually associated with female-bodied persons.

In the meantime, I developed strategies that allowed me to function daily, while taking advantage of ADD's positive aspects: I do have an extraordinary ability to concentrate, and I can devise solutions composed of seemingly disparate elements.

I want to do the same thing in this area. I want my inner woman to function so my life is more satisfying and fulfilling, not so my life is torn asunder and left a shambles. The object is neither to "cure" my ADD (I have scheduled appointments with two different doctors for the same time tomorrow) nor my dysphoria, but to use both so I live more effectively.

Choose life,
S

Quote from: interalia on January 12, 2011, 08:35:04 PM
I use the same approach dealing with my own triggers.  I'll try to use the spider analogy.

Well no, it's not really the same approach.
The same approach would be confronting your GID, realising that being female isn't so scary and allowing yourself to transition. Then the GID goes away.

QuoteIt isn't a cure, the GID is still there, but after a trigger is neutralized there is one less thing that causes me to feel dysphoric.  Having the clarity of mind to not continuously be assaulted by triggers has allowed me increasing freedom from the crushing prison of GID.

It seems to me that you do have a phobia: your GID. You're scared of giving in to it.

I have a ton of potential triggers, but here are the main ones that seem to pop up more often.

-Seeing myself in the mirror without my binder, more so with clothing on than without for some reason.
-Having a period.
-Sometimes even being horny can trigger it because to relieve it I have to masturbate or be touched by someone else, which means remembering what bits I have. I need to get a vibrator or something. Seriously.
-Having anyone comment on my breasts. Now that I have a binder this is no longer an issue
-Cat calls were probably my biggest trigger pre-binder. They'd send me into depressive episodes that would often last for weeks, and would often be coupled with either starving myself or self harming in other ways.
-Being ma'med. Not horrible, but it can spoil the rest of my day.
-Having (typically cis) women refer to me as "sweetie", "babe", or "hon". 

Quote from: Forum Admin on January 12, 2011, 03:16:21 PM
Hi Shelly,
The things you're describing about seeing women or images of women and feeling pangs of envy are very common in cis women. Women see these things and instantly feel bad because their breasts aren't big enough, their butt isn't big enough, their legs aren't long enough, etc
But I understand it's different in your case because your body isn't female, while they wish they had 'more' of what they already got.

This is somewhat reassuring; it isn't just a trans thing.  I remember the first time I got a seriously intense pang of jealousy; it was a few weeks before my 12th birthday.  I then felt envy at almost everyone because I felt so wrong with my body.  But funny thing, the girl I felt most envious of in seventh grade was not the prettiest, most feminine looking girl.  It was a rather masculine looking girl, with a squarish jaw and high forehead, that I felt most envious of, because I felt that if I were living as a girl, I might look like her.  Through high school I felt incredibly ugly because I was so far from any feminine ideal.  It seemed like a constant litany of "I could be her" in my head.

When I first came out to my conservative Christian friends as trans and with my intentions of transition, we had an interesting conversation about sin.  Being guys, they thought that lust was such a bad sin, and I told them, "I never felt lust towards any girl; instead I felt envy."  And they actually thought envy wasn't so bad, whereas I thought it was equally sinful.  Hmmmm.  Well, I am so happy I don't felt envy like that any more.

Simone, you describe my mental state to a tee with regards to focus and attention. I have never had it diagnosed although my mother certainly tried when I was a child. My family and friends call me the absent minded professor because I do what you describe. I can be reading, listening to, watching something or someone and my mind will latch onto some aspect of it or an idea or concept it invokes in me. Then I am gone. I would even swear I no longer visually or aurally perceive the people or objects in front of me. It's like my ears and eyes switch off when I go into this mode. I have done it since I was a small child, as far back as I can recall. It's something I have always had to work to avoid when driving, because it leads to those situations where I am driving down the road and I realize I have no idea how I got to where I am, although no-one in the vehicle notices anything unless they were trying to talk with me. I suppose almost 40 years of driving has developed my auto-pilot to a fairly competent level. Tasks or activites requiring my focus but which do not seriously interest me just don't get completed, no matter how sincerely I try. I have significant sleep apnea and for a short while, we thought perhaps it was to blame, but I think that is not true. It may make it worse, but is not a root cause imnsho.

To the point, I wonder if this is common among those of us with non-typical gender identification. Perhaps another mainfestation of whatever it is in our brains that makes us what we are. Anyone know if any studies along those lines have been done?

     I have found that money/relationship problems often caused my dysphoria to intensify.  It turns into a self perpetuating cycle.  It is interesting, to me at least, to see the number of postings on these boards from people with an intense dysphoric incident, then they offhandedly mention that they are also having money/family problems.  Gee, maybe if SOME found a way to decrease their stressors, then they could find middle paths to personal satisfaction and body/mind integration.  How often do you, interalia, find yourself having to apologize for even suggesting that some people may be able to deal with their dysphoria without full transition?  It is as if transition itself has become some sort of almost political goal for some.  My experience in real life is that transition brings a huge load of problems that people often hadn't expected.  Income, family being among the most important.  My experiences are here in the US.  Perhaps it is different for others in countries where surgeries are covered by insurance/government and jobs are protected. Certainly some have no problems and have very successful lives.  I don't doubt that. But when I read studies done on incomes/careers of transitioned individuals as a group, it is scary.
    I don't like that use of "phobia" though, because it is such a loaded word. My fear isn't about being feminine, it is about being poor without a close person to love.  Two nasty divorces can put that fear into you. By controlling my triggers, I can control my time frames, and hopefully, control the outcome.  I want as Oprah says. "the  best possible life," politically correct or not.  Disclaimer: If someone has to transition or die, I believe they should and I wish them nothing but their best possible life.

Well just got a few mins, but would like to thank you all for leaving posts on here. I sometimes worry about putting threads just in case no one answers leaving me feeling totally isolated, but it seems no matter what i put on here, some one can relate to where i am coming from no matter how bizzare i feel some of the things i have said. I know i have said it loads of times, but this site is so helpfull to me as a way of showing to my wife that i am not the only one who has these so hard to describe feelings. I have only briefly read some of the replies left, but what i have come across i have found myself saying "oh my god" several times,will leave another reply tomorrow, but just wanted to say thanks!

Hi Shelly, this is also Shelly,

I don't hang out much in the androgen forum, but I was messaged by another member that frequents this one, so thought I'd check it out. I consider myself MTF as I am in transition, but I am in the very androgynous stage and having a hard time taking "that" next step to FULL TIME. Your post is very much how I have felt and still feel at times. Many of the comments made I can relate with.

Quote from: shelly on January 14, 2011, 06:08:32 AMlike me, who at times feels like i am the only one on this planet who feels this way.

I had felt this way most of my life and even though I have accepted my GID 70% and found other people similar to me, I still feel like this. Part of the reason being is the 30% I have not accepted. Like you I have searched most of my life for a cure I feel so many other TS's have not done this. I read about some that embrace themselves that look at this as a blessing. I'm not saying its wrong, its just that's the complete opposite of the way I feel.  I have come to realize transition is the only cure, but in my head I don't think I am 100% sold on that. I have read about some trans, that they're dysphoria is gone after a year or two of RLE.  My biggest fear is, my dysphoria will not be cured until SRS. I am seeing a GP, I have told him many of my thoughts, I have even told him I would like to focus more on reasons "not" to transition. We have since abandoned that idea. I feel my main reason for not giving in, is society and my children. What will people think, what will my children think? I don't dwell on society as much as my children. I'm truthfully, not afraid of my children not loving me no more. I feel I have raised them very well and this is not my fear, even though I know it still may happen. My fear with my children is one of acceptance, and fear of other people not accepting them.  I feel that telling my children, "Oh, your Dad is really a girl" will completely F*** their life up. I Love them so much and am trying to make sure they them selves don't screw up in life, and now I'm the one that's going to screw them. It's not fair to them, if I transition and it's not fair to them if I live in turmoil. I'm totally screwed either way, if I continue my life the way it was or if I continue transitioning.

Quote from: shelly on January 14, 2011, 06:08:32 AM.At times months can pass and i feel almost normal, as if i am "cured" then out of the blue and like a bolt of lightening "she" returns
Its taken me years  to realise exactly what i am and what i need to do to right the things i believe are wrong,

Many many times!  I believe now, the times I didn't feel this way, were the times I accepted my self to be male and tried my best. I had to finally come to the conclusion, it won't go away, it will be there always! It did take a traumatic life event for me to realize that, unfortunately it may take that for you and others. Even though I am trying to make things "right". I still very much fear this is wrong, this is just not right to do. I hope once I get to that 100% mark of self acceptance this will go away.

Quote from: shelly on January 14, 2011, 06:08:32 AMMy end game in all this i feel is getting boobs.

Yes this was a big issue for me as well. Mostly because, to me breasts are a very strong female gender marker. I had considered myself a cd for the most part of my life, for MYSELF the breasts, hair, clothing; mannerisms and so on defined the female gender. Since accepting myself as a transsexual and maybe also the HRT, I now feel it's what's inside me that defines my gender. Yes, I now have the breasts, I have my hair, and my body is looking more feminine. None of that matters, I still am not able to show the real me, the one inside.  I have let some of those feelings come out; I still have a ways to go.  Back in my cd days I had little fear of presenting female in public.  I have presented female at times since the age of 15. At 25 I was minutes away from going on hrt (black market) I passed at times, other times not.  I didn't care. I had to show the world who I really was, and this was the way I did it. I think back though and wonder what the heck I was thinking! LOL. It is now that I have that fear. I have only presented female 3-4 times in the last year and a half. Even now if I am to present, I change very little about my self, little more makeup, different top, earrings and bam, I'm Shelly.  Even though I pass very well when presenting, I still feel like I am trying to put on a show. I would like to get to the point that I don't have to add anything to present who I am. I am getting close to that point. This is how I have planned my transition. I never wanted to just come out one day and "say you can call me Shelly now" Would it be great to do it that way? Maybe. I sometimes think the way I am doing it, is much harder, because I also feel that I'm putting on a show while presenting male.

Quote from: shelly on January 14, 2011, 06:08:32 AMOr to mention results of the Cogiati i have taken several times, would  not recommend transitioning fully, but a partial transition could be helpfull.

This Cogitate test is BS, I think I took it once for S&G's and I was totally honest maybe even too honest, I didn't want to flaw the results!   AMAZING! It recommended transition. Whatever! There is one test you can take. It is the test of letting go, let go of all preconceived thoughts of your self and even others. I sound really good at telling you this, but this is something I still have to do my self.

You also mentioned, you feel isolated at times. I have become very isolated since accepting myself as trans. It is of my own doing. I know I could stop much of this, if I just came out. I think my mind is in a better place since hrt, but I have not been able to embrace these good feelings, mainly because of still living my life as a male, I have isolated myself for fear of not liking to show "him" anymore and for fear of "her" showing up at "him" times, but all my anxiety comes from not being MYSELF.

Shelly, if you ever need to talk, feel free to message me.

Take Care
Shelly

I find the summer time is my time for experiencing greater GID -
     there is something about how summer clothing polarises the sexes to a greater extreme and highlight my awkward place amongst them. I see a woman in a floaty dress reading a book and leaning against a man in his shorts listening to music and I want to be both of them.

Quote from: sfem on January 13, 2011, 09:17:50 AM
Simone, you describe my mental state to a tee with regards to focus and attention. I have never had it diagnosed although my mother certainly tried when I was a child. My family and friends call me the absent minded professor because I do what you describe. I can be reading, listening to, watching something or someone and my mind will latch onto some aspect of it or an idea or concept it invokes in me. Then I am gone. I would even swear I no longer visually or aurally perceive the people or objects in front of me. It's like my ears and eyes switch off when I go into this mode. I have done it since I was a small child, as far back as I can recall. It's something I have always had to work to avoid when driving, because it leads to those situations where I am driving down the road and I realize I have no idea how I got to where I am, although no-one in the vehicle notices anything unless they were trying to talk with me. I suppose almost 40 years of driving has developed my auto-pilot to a fairly competent level. Tasks or activites requiring my focus but which do not seriously interest me just don't get completed, no matter how sincerely I try. I have significant sleep apnea and for a short while, we thought perhaps it was to blame, but I think that is not true. It may make it worse, but is not a root cause imnsho.

To the point, I wonder if this is common among those of us with non-typical gender identification. Perhaps another mainfestation of whatever it is in our brains that makes us what we are. Anyone know if any studies along those lines have been done?

One of my favorite book titles on ADD/ADHD is You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!. Most people, as I recall, haven't called me lazy, they've said I needed to try harder. I have felt unreliable--even to myself, and wondered if I were as smart as others thought, why couldn't I make myself do what I had to do. My wife and daughter call me weird, but that goes for my gender, as well as for my ADD.

I suppose a discussion of ADD is beyond the province of his forum, but if you want to PM, I can point you to resources.

I will say, I heard a doctor on npr, say that gender differences were most pronounced in young children, hence, single sex schools must be an option. Hyperactivity, he said, was merely the way boys should be, and we are medicating them simply because they are boys. Real boys cannot sit still in class for more than 6 (I think that was his number) minutes. I knew as a youngster I wasn't a real boy.

S

Some everyday triggers:

• I am shopping in the mall with my wife and daughter, and they tell me to go elsewhere for a while, because they are going bra shopping.
• I am shopping with my wife and she asks: "Do you like that dress?"
• At home, my wife says: "Do something about that spider. You're the guy."
• Dining with my wife, the hostess says "Enjoy your lunch, ladies."--and then apologizes.
• I'm the only male-bodied soul in the group, and the others tell me they hope I won't feel uncomfortable (happens often).
• I have to change clothes in a locker room.
• The person on the other end of the phone thinks they are talking with my wife.
• My receipt from the drugstore has my name, prefixed with the honorific Ms.
• My wife, as a new mother, would come home from the support group for new mother ranting about "You men."
• My wife would be on a business trip, and our young daughter would call her to tell her she felt sick (before telling me).
• My wife would be on a business trip, and our daughter's teacher would lament: "That poor motherless child".
• My wife and I watch a football game and the truck and beer commercials are aimed at some other gender (She wants to watch the one tomorrow).

S

Simone, thanks for the offer of followup on my possibly offtopic topics. I may take you up on it. First, I'll have a look at the book you mentioned.

Regarding triggers, I am unsure I have self-analyzed enough to think I know what they might be. I'm not sure that knowledge of what they might be would benefit me. I'll also have to give this more thought.