I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.

Word.

I worked and ran maintenance crews for clubs and theaters and the women's room was almost (not 100%, but in the 90%s) far messier than the men's room is.  Furthermore its a class deal, the more lower class the mens room patrons were the more diminished the ability or will to aim, but the more upper class the women were, look out!

Well I guess we agree to disagree. I do not support a gender deconstruction of society like that which Transgender, Inc. is pushing for. There still are two sexes with the exception of intersexed individuals. I'm not going to ignore obvious science and common sense. Obviously there is gender variance in society such as crossdressers and people who identify as a third gender or prefer to identify as genderless. Then we have those who were strictly born in the wrong body. Society can and should accept this without completely deconstructing gender. I do not support unisex bathrooms unless only one individual can use them at a time. I do not want men in the bathroom with me, period. I don't know why any woman would cis or trans. I don't care if a poorly passable transwoman or crossdresser enters the women's room, if they are making no attempt to act as a woman (i.e. with appropriate mannerisms and sitting DOWN on the toilet) they should not be using women's facilities.

I do not believe that workplaces or businesses should be forced to give up dress codes either. There are plenty of professions where it is not appropriate do dress certain ways. My job basically doesn't care how I dress as long as it abides by EITHER the women's or the men's dress code. What is happening here is that people are attempting to completely destroy the concept of gender and culture overall and that is damaging. There are still two sexes (with the exception mentioned above). It seems like some people want to be able to do anything they want and be entitled to acceptance which is simply not the case. I take a libertarian approach in that I believe that you should be able to live how you like but I do not believe you are entitled to any kind of results. A restaurant can require you to wear a shirt while entering. Likewise a restaurant has a right to require that if someone presenting as a female enters the women's toilet that they sit down. I don't care if I get flamed for this I do not believe that gender should be removed from society altogether because an extreme minority wants to identify as a third gender or genderless.

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 02:15:38 AMI don't care if I get flamed for this I do not believe that gender should be removed from society altogether because an extreme minority wants to identify as a third gender or genderless.

Of course you don't care if you get flamed.  You're the one who starts the post critical of other transpeople.  You've done it across a couple threads.  You're very judgmental and it's clear that you are working hard to be a woman and need that hard line to cross.  There are a lot of transwomen who want to be called Tiffany or whatever and work as airlines stewardesses or 50s housewives.  I empathize with their struggle, even if I don't understand it.  We live outside of the norm.  Some want to stay outside of the norm, some want to assimilate back in.   Some have a very institutionalized moral core, some don't.  I ask that you don't try to get flamed.  That you try empathy even when you don't have understanding.  If you don't have empathy for the people you've criticized..the sex workers, the drag queens, etc. etc. who can?

We're all real live human beings and they are not your enemy.  If you're going to point out people who cause you discrimination, there is a long line before you get to Drag Queens.  Talk about the people you should really be afraid of.  The people who would murder you as soon as look at you just because you're a pervert or abomination.  The people who wouldn't hire you, wouldn't rent to you, wouldn't treat you for illness.

Drag Queens in bathrooms?  You're barking up the wrong she.

Japple, you are making assumptions here. I am not "trying" to be a woman, I already am. I am also making no attempt to fit gender stereotypes. In many ways I am not all that feminine. Internal sex/gender is not the same as expressed feminine/masculine behavior. Plenty of transwomen are butch lesbians but they are still neurologically women. This is something many crossdressing men don't understand. A man getting all girly once a week does not make him a woman. This failure to distinguish feminine expression from neurological brain sex identity is a big part of thes problem. I never have had anything against CDs or other groups but do not want to be lumped into the same category as them nor do I want them lumping themselves into ours. This isn't bigotry but the right to protect one's identity.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 25, 2011, 08:56:29 AM
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.

This.

Although another poster is right, there is a class difference. In general, men's rooms in upscale establishments are pristine, while your average dive bar men's room is really dingy and looks like you don't really want to touch anything below waist level. But working-class women tend to be quite clean, while upscale ladies' rooms are usually revolting.

That said, there's a pretty big difference in the type of disgusting. With men, it's just a little bit of "My aim's not so great when I'm drunk, and sometimes I like to carve things in the stall walls while I'm taking a dump" whereas with women it's an "I'm too good to clean up after myself, and I'm too good to sit on a public toilet seat, so I'm going to leave piss on every surface and paper products soaked in bodily fluids all over the place so that some poor minimum-wage (probably nonwhite) worker can clean up after me later."

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 03:50:17 AM

hopefully some people will begin to understand why TS people are tired of being lumped in with this "All Gender Movement."

...

I never have had anything against CDs or other groups but do not want to be lumped into the same category as them nor do I want them lumping themselves into ours.

It sounds to me like you are advocating the separation of transexuals from under the Transgender umbrella term.  Is that the case?

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 26, 2011, 07:57:44 AM
It sounds to me like you are advocating the separation of transexuals from under the Transgender umbrella term.  Is that the case?

With respect I must officially rule that question invalid as you are effectively inviting another user to violate forum TOS rule 10. Thus:

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate,  deserving, or more real than any others

I must therefore advise Britney_413 either not to answer or if she does to be very careful what she says.

Inviting a user to incriminate themselves under forum rules would also in my opinion effectively be a breach of the spirit of those rules in itself. They are, after all, designed to protect users.

So please both of you please be careful how you progress your current respective lines of thought as you are both walking the line at present. Thank you. 

Jenny it is obvious Glenda is just trying to get the poster to publicly admit what we already know about her. She is a trans elietist/seperatist.
just sayin'

Quote from: cynthialee on January 26, 2011, 09:56:15 AM
Jenny it is obvious Glenda is just trying to get the poster to publicly admit what we already know about her. She is a trans elietist/seperatist.
just sayin'

Yes I know - and therein lies the dilemma, because you still can't openly incite her to proclaim it. If she does it of her own accord then that is another thing altogether and we will deal with it accordingly, but if someone else has incited the comment then that is effectively entrapment, and I can't see that it is fair.

I don't like separatism any more than you do, but my job as a moderator is to be scrupulously fair to all. Sorry. In any case this is an official moderator decision - it is not up for discussion or debate as per rule 2 and rule 20 - if I am mistaken then I am sure that another member of staff will look at it and put me straight.

I do not support a gender deconstruction of society like that which Transgender, Inc. is pushing for.

I doubt that outside of a few blogs and a couple of papers at the MLA (neither of which is anyone really paying any attention to) that anyone is advocating this.  A 'gender blind' society perhaps.

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 02:15:38 AMI don't care if a poorly passable transwoman or crossdresser enters the women's room, if they are making no attempt to act as a woman (i.e. with appropriate mannerisms and sitting DOWN on the toilet) they should not be using women's facilities.

By "appropriate mannerisms" you mean the ones based on "science and common sense" that you mentioned earlier?

After all, it would be terrible if these mannerisms were just arbitrary, and weren't based on science, but were only developed by the prejudice of society.

Heck, I'm hanging in here to find out how you can advocate 'personal responsibility' and yet blame other people at the same time.  Perhaps it's that 'freedom for me, but not for thee' deal.

Being pretty new here, it's interesting to me how this thread has jumped from "I'm tired of this..." to a discussion of the utopian bathroom, and then on to destroying the trans umbrella, with moderators, thankfully stepping in to squash that one.

I would back up for a moment to my comment that any male presenting as female and yet willing to out themselves in a women's restroom is operating under the societal structure called "patriarchal privilege." No one commented on this. Are there any feminists out there?

I hereby vow to say something to men such as these when I encounter them (which has only happened once to me, and startled me so much I was speechless). Something to the effect of "Excuse me, could you please take your conversation outside the women's restroom? For myself, I am pretty used to men presenting as women since my partner is trans, but lots of other women use this restroom. It can be upsetting to them to hear your male voices.  Please leave."

While this feels scary to me, it seems to me that this sort of activism is called for. While I agree that the new European model of group unisex bathrooms may ultimately be a good way to improve the overall behavior of all genders, in the meantime, we have to live with the behavior of those in our community who are, arguably, misbehaving. Those of us who are seeing the problem have a responsibility to speak up.

I was tempted to throw in "Your behavior is not representing the trans community very favorably", but I decided to refrain from inviting political discussion in the bathroom and keep it on a more personal level. Please share your thoughts on whether you feel it appropriate to speak directly to those creating the problem and what you might say if you did.

I wish to point out again that a transmen would never do this, not only because he would be in physical danger, but because he is not operating under "patriarchal privilege".  He has been brought up to keep the feeling of others well in his scope.

Ruby

An excellent post Ruby - which I have to say I entirely agree with. Perhaps the only caveat that I would put on this is that it is easy for me, and you whose voices never broke to sound female. For some it can be quite difficult.

Quote from: Ruby on January 25, 2011, 12:18:28 AM
When a person stands to piss in the bathroom or speaks in a masculine voice, this is NOT PRESENTING as female.

So if a FTM sits to pee and speaks in a non-masculine voice, is he 'NOT presenting as male'?
More to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
I'm concerned that a cis person is expressing these opinions on here.
What experience do you have of being a trans woman using the female bathrooms?

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 26, 2011, 09:17:16 PM
So if a FTM sits to pee and speaks in a non-masculine voice, is he 'NOT presenting as male'?
More to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
I'm concerned that a cis person is expressing these opinions on here.
What experience do you have of being a trans woman using the female bathrooms?

I think something else that's missing here is that people dressed in women's clothing, whatever their anatomy, are completely justified in thinking that it may be unsafe to use the men's room. This includes crossdressers and drag queens, even if they're not fully passable or intending to pass.

To the poster arguing that it's "patriarchal privilege" to use the ladies' room as a visible male: Quite the contrary. It's a result of patriarchal privilege and hetero cis male normativity that these visible males feel compelled to use the ladies' room.

And I prioritize a crossdresser's, drag queen's, or visible trans woman's right to be free from being raped or assaulted far, far above a cis or passable trans woman's right to be free from hearing masculine voices in the ladies' room, any day, any time, no questions asked.

Anytime anyone is priortizing 'rights' I either feel like puking or playing The Horst-Wessel-Lied.  When ANY group claims a greater 'priority' on rights, history always records the same results.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 26, 2011, 06:04:48 PM
An excellent post Ruby - which I have to say I entirely agree with. Perhaps the only caveat that I would put on this is that it is easy for me, and you whose voices never broke to sound female. For some it can be quite difficult.

Yes, it can be difficult. But how difficult is it to not speak if you simply need to take a pee? It's fine to use the restroom, but don't they might be treating it like it is their personal parlour.

And thanks for the compliment on my post.

I will disagree Tekla.
The right to feel comfortable is definatly trumped by the right to not be raped, beaten or killed.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 26, 2011, 10:08:59 PM
I will disagree Tekla.
The right to feel comfortable is definatly trumped by the right to not be raped, beaten or killed.

+9000