I think that in light of another thread that got quite volatile, that those of us who identify as androgyne need to have a discussion, hopefully with people who are not androgyne, about what it means to us and how we approach terminology.

The first thing I want to say is that androgyne is NOT binary.  More than anything, we are neither men nor women.  We identify as something in between and there may not be two of us who identify exactly the same way, which leads to a plethora of terms and a proverbial "term dressing room," where we try out term after term until we find the one that fits us best.  In the long run, androgyne is an umbrella term for those of us in the middle.

The second thing I want to point out is that the terms "male/female," as used on this forum, often refer to the physical body.  We aren't male gendered or female gendered, so to describe our gender with those terms would be odd.  This is what was at the heart of the other thread, I think: the misunderstanding of the usage of the word "male."  That is what I got from it, anyway.

The specific term that caused so much trouble was "male lesbian."  I understand why someone would be offended by this, but it is important to understand the term being used from the androgyne perspective.  As I understood it from the OP's posts, they are a male bodied person who identifies more with lesbians than any other group of people...they feel like a lesbian, but they have a male body.

Androgynes may identify with members of the other physical sex without wanting to do anything to their bodies.  I identify much more with gay men than any other group of people, but I don't want to change my body with hormones or surgery.

It's simply a different perspective.

Thoughts?

I thought male lesbian made no sense whatsoever. The way you describe it, I get where you're coming from but it is only on the edge of making sense. I leave it to you and anyone else to describe themselves in anyway they choose.

Well, the way I look at it, the terms we choose probably means something different to each person.  I know the OP had read the definition in a book and they identified with that definition; that more or less puts fault with the author, not the OP.  It is also my understanding that it was the beginning of this person's journey, so I certainly think a great deal more understanding and latitude should have been granted to them.  Rather than offering up a better term (or even more appropriately, actually answering the OP's question), a few people were extremely hostile toward the OP and derailed the thread entirely from the first response.  It also happens that it was mostly not androgynes who were doing that, but others who identify in the binary...hence the need for deeper understanding.

The main point of this thread is to explain 1.) how we approach the terms male and female (among others) and 2.) to emphasize understanding rather than allowing ourselves to be offended by something that was not meant offensively.

Warning, im only a novice, so quite often dont have a clue what im on about! Cant quite work out what a male lesbian is supposed to be, guess i could be one as in the bedroom department i just see my wife and i as two woman, with me having a"rea"l dildo attached. The same things that turn woman on does the same trick for me too,but outside the bedroom that as far as me being lesbian goes. I dont really get on with actual lesbians as a lot of the ones i have met have come across as being a bit masculine and i spend half my life trying to get away from being that.

No question, we have a different take on alot of gender terminology, but it is tough to pin down exact meanings- even with androgyne itself. I self identfy as bigender. I am definitely not a girl, not a guy either, and I'm not in the middle because I see myself and male AND female. Even among bigendered folk, the variation in how differently you can be male and female staggers the mind!

Im fluid androgone (spelling?) I am whatever I feel like on that particular day, be it female, male or somewhere inbetween. I dont understand male lesbian either, I view that as more of a sexuality identity, but whatever they feel comfortable with is cool with me.

Be whatever you want and label yourself however you will, We're all still Homosapiens.

Speaking of labels, have you ever thought that the only time we think about our identity is when we are questioned by other people. If someone asks me, and if I'm confident in myself enough, I will answer that I'm a biological male, I like most of my sex characteristics except these ones: my prominent larynx, facial hair, and my penis. Those are three things I want to get rid of, but I don't feel like becoming a woman; I'm still pretty much a man. By the way, I'm into men.

Now what am I if I have to pick a label?

The label that you are comfortable with and would like to use. It isn't anyones business as to how you think that label applies or even how you define it.
You want to use just one or a hundred labels, that is up to you. None of them are wrong. It is just a simple way of trying to explain yourself to others and your self.

I personally just use Androgyne. If you want to know more details, ask. I don't mind explaining how I think about me to anyone. But I also won't let anyone tell me who I am. I already know that. It may be in a tangled mess in my head, but I know what that tangle is. As I unravel it, my explainations  will become better. It's why I love to come hear and listen and sometimes say something about the label discussions.
I also feel a sense of same with all the Androgyne people here. I can't get that same feeling with those who think in binary terms.
But I have said that their comments about labels or anything else is welcome. There may be some great opinions from them, and indeed there has been.
I'm babbling again..... I'm a babbler, one of my labels......

Quote from: symempathy on January 28, 2011, 09:59:56 AM
Speaking of labels, have you ever thought that the only time we think about our identity is when we are questioned by other people. If someone asks me, and if I'm confident in myself enough, I will answer that I'm a biological male, I like most of my sex characteristics except these ones: my prominent larynx, facial hair, and my penis. Those are three things I want to get rid of, but I don't feel like becoming a woman; I'm still pretty much a man. By the way, I'm into men.

Now what am I if I have to pick a label?

'Neutrois' is word worthy of your investigation, symempathy.
Neutrois is a term for people who seeks to lose the sex characteristics of their natal sex without gaining the sex characteristics of the opposite sex. While Transsexuals are either FtM or MtF, Neutrois are MtN or FtN. A Neutrois is a member of "a non-gendered class", a null-gendered person, an individual who desires sex nullification due to their gender identity.

Here's a good informational starting point:
http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html

-Emerald

I understood what the person in the other topic meant, but could also see why some people were offended by terminology.

When talking to people about my gender, I'll use trans or transgender if they aren't familiar with a broader spectrum, since they've usually heard that term, and then elaborate by saying that I am outside binary gender or even tell some of the history of how I came to feel this. Most people get it. Sometimes I'll use the word androgyne if they're more familiar with the LBTG community, but most aren't.

Z

Is Androgyne the umbrella term for anyone who is not binary?

Are Bigenders something separate?

Does anyone with whatever label consider themselves separate?

I think this is where the terminology needs to be discussed.

I also think that once the labels, definitions, etc, are put together we should have a summary written out. I also think an explanation about how we can't think in terms that binaries do, with *something something* said about care in offending us. This I'm assuming would include the same for us, that we do care about offending binaries with our statements and opinions.

There is common ground between everyone. I for one appreciate the binaries comments and but, if they are offending... we should say something about it in a manner that is not confrontational. There is a learning curve to all this. I'm not sure how it works, but, I know it's there and we should use it to let others understand who we are.

All that said, I think it should be pinned to the top of this forum. Not as a warning, but as an explanation.

Thoughts anyone?

I've always felt, when it comes to offending - the blame is solely placed on the person being offended.
A person chooses to be offended more often than a person chooses to offend.

As for our male lesbian friend, I hope they haven't been scared off - they could find themselves stuck at the beginning of their journey because some people chose to use their language as a way of riding their hobby horse than talk about what the person was actually trying (however awkwardly) to say.

Quote from: ativan on January 28, 2011, 05:53:32 PM
Is Androgyne the umbrella term for anyone who is not binary?

Are Bigenders something separate?

Does anyone with whatever label consider themselves separate?

I think this is where the terminology needs to be discussed.

Bigenders and Androgynes aren't the same, ativan. They are different, separate from each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

Quote"While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person consciously or unconsciously changes their gender-role behaviour from primarily masculine to primarily feminine, or vice versa."

I've always thought it would be nice to have a Bigender forum here but it hasn't happened as yet. Apparently no one has requested a Bigender support area or perhaps there aren't enough people here who identity as Bigender to warrant such a forum.

At any rate, Androgyne, Bigender and Neutrois are three different gender types, three separate things.

Androgyne is a non-binary gender variant, neither masculine nor feminine, or both genders with neither gender being dominant.
Bigender is a binary gender variant, distinctly alternating between masculine and feminine.
Neutrois is a non-gendered class, null-gendered.

-Emerald

Then the title Androgyne should be something that reflects this?
I think this has been gone over before, but, does it deserve attention again?
I'm just tossing things out here, I guess I can't quite grab a hold of this yet.

The main point of this thread is to explain 1.) how we approach the terms male and female (among others) and 2.) to emphasize understanding rather than allowing ourselves to be offended by something that was not meant offensively

I'm not sure how I explain this to myself, or how to emphasize understanding...
I think I'm going to watch and listen for a couple days.
I hope more than a few respond to this thread.
Maybe it's just me, the ranting babbler, but I think this is important enough.

*I edited out the I agree statement I first made. I didn't do this for any other reason than I really need to sit back and think about whats going on and how I relate to this forum. I love this place, but I feel the aftermath of last Saturday hasn't settled far enough. I have a bad feeling that arguing is going to take over again, from inside and out. I have things I want to get done, so I a going to go do those and maybe reflect on this some more. I'm basically off the forum for a couple days at least.

I think it's really easy to get tripped up in terminology because it often demands definitions be applied. If you want something that really has no definition I guess that then actually becomes the defining factor for that term. Honestly, all the different terminology out there these days can be really confusing.

Personally, I'm androgynous. But as I understand it, that's something different from Androgyne. I'm mostly male in mind, the body is somewhere in between. I do have some female characteristics. So really, I started to just reject specific terms and definitions all together because noting applied 100%.

Hey if you can find something and it applies to you perfectly and "fits" and you're happy with that, more power to you. For me, personally, nothing fits. I'm just me.

Quote from: Emerald on January 28, 2011, 04:15:59 PM

'Neutrois' is word worthy of your investigation, symempathy.
Neutrois is a term for people who seeks to lose the sex characteristics of their natal sex without gaining the sex characteristics of the opposite sex. While Transsexuals are either FtM or MtF, Neutrois are MtN or FtN. A Neutrois is a member of "a non-gendered class", a null-gendered person, an individual who desires sex nullification due to their gender identity.

Here's a good informational starting point:
http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html

-Emerald

Neutrois is perhaps a good label for me because I indeed never think about my gender. I simply accept certain traits of my sex. However, if I'm a neutrois, how do I define my sexual orientation?

I don't care what gender a person identifies himself/herself with. I'm attracted to people who have strong secondary sex characteristics of a male. Certainly there are other factors that influence my attraction to the person as well. Hence, I won't feel offended if I'm called gay, but it may not be an accurate one. This is such a headache.

@ symempathy - Androphilia/androphile/androphilic are terms for the sexual attraction toward males or toward masculinity without reference to the sex of the person feeling the attraction.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic=12867

I've always seen neutrois, bigender etc.. expressions of the central issue that a person 'does not identify as male or female' - whether they then identify as inbetween, null gender, ungendered or whatever is how the brain translates and expresses this basic issue.

Perhaps this area should be considered the "non-binary" area rather than androgyn. It's a thought.

As for terms? Hmmm. I've seen enough terms to make my head spin. Personally? I stick to androgyn and explain my personal feelings from there. If I'm feeling spicy I'll use "Third gender" because...yea. I"m not a man, I'm not a woman...I'm the third gender. *shrugs* Works for me.

I'm glad this is getting some discussion.

One thing I do want to address, since it was brought up, is the name of this forum.  We've had this discussion before (about whether it should be changed) and nothing good came of it...the threads were locked and we were given stern warnings that it was the Androgyne forum, period.  Just an FYI.


I think terms, at least for androgynes are typically chosen based on how they make us feel.  There's a whole lot of gray area and I like that.  I can make up my own term if I want to or I can choose one that someone else has created.  For me, at least, I find a certain joy in not having the exact answer...I'm free to wander through the Unicorn Forest as much as I want.  There's always something new for me to learn and that makes me happy.


So perhaps for our non-Androgyne friends, we could say a couple sentences (just something quick) that explains how we feel about our respective genders?  I don't know how many non-Androgynes are viewing this thread, but I certainly hope we have a few.  I'd like to hear their views on their genders as well.

I generally just identify as Androgyne.  I am female bodied, but I identify and feel more closely related to gay men.  I would like to look androgynous in the future, but the weight issue has to be taken care of first (which shouldn't be that difficult now because I bought a car and can't afford to spend money anymore... ).