It's very important to me. Much as Tinkerbell said, I don't think I'd get taken seriously as a man if I didn't pass. I also don't need the extra level of stress involved in worrying about it. I live in a small town, so people know about me, but it still irritates me when someone makes a pronoun error (although I try not to show my irritation and be reasonably gracious about it).

If I didn't pass, though, I'm sure I'd find a way to cope.

Dennis

I can't think of much that's more important. Only one poster here has ever seen me in person (in a rather noisy pub so my voice was atrocious while trying to speak loud enough) so other than myself only she could provide insight into it.

I find it hard to judge my own self, no one gives me funny looks anymore so from my perspective I pass. I've got my voice to a point where people no longer give me a funny look when I talk and I've come out to one person after being around them for a fair while and they had absolutely no clue. In that respect I pass, I suppose what I'm thinking about is stealth....

Though there's two sides to passing, changing yourself to fit in as best you can as female and being entirely yourself which is what in my opinion transition is about, certain things you have to change yourself like voice work but I've more or less just sunk into this new life like the warm blanket I never had, I'm not going to turn into someone I'm not just to appear to be a more "genuine" woman, I'll certainly pick things up like mannerisms but i'll not force anything on myself.

Quote from: Mawd on January 17, 2007, 03:52:27 PM
Only one poster here has ever seen me in person (in a rather noisy pub so my voice was atrocious while trying to speak loud enough) so other than myself only she could provide insight into it.

And I'm not going to do that here...   

Thinking about it now I'm quite glad of it.

Quote from: Mawd on January 17, 2007, 05:56:49 PM
Thinking about it now I'm quite glad of it.

I have no intention of betraying anyone's trust, here or elsewhere. You should know that. 

I suppose passing comes with confidence in yourself.

If you happen to be less convincing on first sight, once people get to know you for 'you', then your true gender will prevail.

But if you don't have confidence in yourself, then you're much more likely to stay hidden away.

Difficult one, but very important.

Try living with a man who considers arguing about psychology and quantum physics to be an apropriate basis for conversation on a daily basis for three years just you and him and see if you can come out of it without being a little odd personality wise.

it's not so much visual passing I worry about, more the way I move (I tend to lumber about the place and I have a very poor sense of balance) and allot of personality traits that come from playing on the defencive of unwinnable arguements for years and years.

Passing for me right now is taking a back seat to losing weight & to begin voice therapy, however.com; here of late as long as I keep my mouth closed and don't speak when I walk up to someone's desk that doesn't know me I am getting Ma'am'd instead of Sir'd (by both military & civilians). I haven't cut my hair in over 5 months & I wear earrings but my baritone voice is a dead give away.  But passing is very important for me I'm hoping to have the voice & weight under control in a 1.5 to 2 years.

It wasn't until recently that I realized how important passing is to me.  I am not a very strong person and I really have a lot of difficulty being seen as anything other than female.  Since going fulltime, there have been a few people who refuse to use my legal name and insist on calling me by my old name (which I hate) and it has reduced me to tears every time.  I think it takes a VERY strong person to be "out and proud" and that is just not me.  I tried it for a little bit and realizing how easy it made me crumble tells me that passing is route for me.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on January 18, 2007, 12:32:02 PM
I am not a very strong person and I really have a lot of difficulty being seen as anything other than female.  Since going fulltime, there have been a few people who refuse to use my legal name and insist on calling me by my old name (which I hate)

People who insist on calling you by your old name are either cruel, afraid or suffer from a very strange sense of humour. There are many people out there who don't really understand what you've gone through and feel very shy and embarrassed because of this. Subsequently, as a coping mechanism they can resort to denying or trivialising the situation and may develop a strange sense of humour. Then there are some people who are afraid, because they feel the pain that you've been through and don't really know how to respond. Deep down, they're probably feeling pretty awful and want to be there for you. Then, of course you get the people who are just plain cruel and ignorant, who wish to cause you suffering because, we in their eyes (not true of course) are easy targets and they thrive on our vulnerability. I suppose you have to use your instincts and common sense when judging the motives of people. I'd say there are three ways you can respond to this sort of thing, stop seeing them if they mean genuine harm, have sympathy for their terrible sense of humour if that's the problem or just smile at them and let them see that you're happy to be you. That will soon stop it. 

Passing is understandably very important, and I must clarify that when I said have confidence in yourself that doesn't mean being 'out and proud' if you like, or VERY strong but at peace with yourself and allowing yourself the respect which you deserve. You don't have to be this ultra sociable confident person, but somebody who is comfortable and looking forward to enjoying life. Also, don't hold it against yourself for not being different, we are all individuals and life has to fit around us and not the other way round. 

Judging by your avatar you don't look as if you'd have trouble passing. 

Thanks Elizabeth.  In all cases, the reason was the third one you mentioned--that they were cruel/ignorant.  I have dealt with it by not seeing them.  Perhaps not the best way of changing things, but at least I can cope that way.

As for the confidence, I understand and I do exude plenty of confidence.  The fact is that I do feel very, very comfortable living this way.  Thank you for the comment on my avy.  I think I do pass fairly well and my voice is fairly good too, whereas I don't even have trouble on the phone.

Melissa

I had a strange experience yesterday:

I had my first speach therapy session, it wasn't so much speach therapy more just passing class. The first session was just her chating with me while she made notes on what to work on, overall she was very complimentary and said she thought four sessions would probably be of benefit for me but as far as she was concerned I'm her regular finished product, things like body language and eye contact while talking, the voice work I've already done, in her own words she said "it's already really rather good " and asked what training materials I'd used and it was mostly just done by me recording my own voice and working on it, I need to improve pitch varation and I need to be able to get more volume with the right resonance but that's all.

She said I was also far too tense and nervous, but i think that's more to do with sitting with someone that reads me so well and having the fact that I'm trans in the limelight, day to day I don't tend to think about it so I'm far more relaxed.


She also gave my face a once over, asked me how much it had changed with HRT and seemed pretty awestruck at my lack of facial hair, seeing as I'm 18 and the referral wait time is usually two years I think she's only really worked with 20+ year olds so she seemed amazed that I had long hair already little male pattern baldness to speak of and that my voice had never properly broken, and suggested I get tested for IS conditions which I already am in about a months time.

We also talked allot about my past how and if i tried to fit in as male which I did and just completely failed at, I went through a year trying to fit in with guys my age trying to get into sports and it just did not work at all and how I dealt with being treated as different at school.

At first I thought this was just to try and get me to talk but later on I realised this was more so that she could get a feel for me as a person so she could help fix the male bits I've picked up over the years which is fairly little other than my general pretentious manner though that could just be because I grew up in london and now I live in scotland it shows up all the more  .

At the end she said she'd like to do a little voice work and also some posture work by filming me and playing back the footage which will likely be scary to say the least, I suspect in the next session she's really going to lay into me for all the things wrong with me, but for now i'm happy.

That and while on the bus home I spotted someone i knew and hadn't seen since early on in transition so went to have a chat, he was with a friend I didn't know, he made a couple of pronoun slips which caused his friend to give me a good stare and a funny look for a second or two before he told him "dude, that's a girl" with complete certainty and I'd been talking with them for a while so he'd had a good feel for my voice .

While I try to look my best, passing isn't that important to me. Being out in public as Gennee is most important. If I get read, I get read.  It won't keep from being who I am.

Gennee

"Passing" is a much overused and abused word/term.  It covers a broad spectrum depending on who is using it.  I have seen many CDs that consider themselves passable that aren't quite there, in my opinion.  Conversely, I have seen some beautiful girls that have never described themselves with that term.  Passing in terms of "fooling" anyone is of no importance to me.  I'm very happy to simply be able to present a very femme image that is quite the opposite of my male image.  It is of importance to me to feel that others in this lifestyle feel that I have accomplished this goal however.  It is also extremely important to me that my image reach a level that satisfies my very critical eye.  I am not the least judgemental of others but have little flexibility when it comes to self apprasial.   

I can understand why some do not feel passing is important.  I make no judgment about that, and frankly it's a great attitude to have.  But if I were to be very honest, it is extremely important to me.  All I have ever wanted from this is to be a woman in the presence of other women.  Without passing, that could never happen.  And maybe it's my own insecurity.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on March 15, 2007, 07:24:05 PM
I can understand why some do not feel passing is important.  I make no judgment about that, and franly it's a great attitude to have.  But if I were to be very honest, it is extremely important to me.  All I have ever wanted from this is to be a woman in the presence of other women.  Without passing, that could never happen.  And maybe it's my own insecurity.

Exactly my feelings too.

Expressing femininity just doesn't get me where I need to be. Like Jenny Boylan once said, for me it's about being *female*, and not necessarily being feminine (though that HELPS, and is nice).

It's a fact that's being emphasized more and more every day now as I transition and come out to people. They've all been GREAT so far, showing me incredible kindness, compassion and acceptance - but as a transsexual, not a woman. For all the struggles, changes and risks I've taken these last few months, I'm realizing that nothing really has changed whatsoever.

That may change in time, as I'm still fairly early on in the process (7 months HRT), but I'm really starting to get scared that this is as good as it's gonna get

Kate

Quote from: madison on November 06, 2006, 06:32:33 PM

For me, identifying as an androgyne, I am never trying to hide my birth-sex. Instead, I am attempting to build a personal wardrobe and presentation that reflects my gender-shifted existence and worldview. Personally, and I know I am not alone, think men can easily appear sexy and even masculine in feminine style clothing. One Rolling Stone issue with Brad Pitt modeling some pretty amazing dresses comes to mind. And even when pushing the envelope of cross dressing, much prefer to find some male version of my feminine self, instead of trying to become aesthetically a woman.

Thus, passing is a non-issue, and if anything, the assumption by people that I should be trying to can be very troubling for me.

---

I would love to hear your personal thoughts.

I try to present as a woman. I get read sometimes, some people that know me (or know "of" me more often) know thats its a male in a dress. but generally I pass and that makes me happy.
If I don't pass ~shrug~ I didn't pass and I go on my way.

Passing is very important to me.  It's one of the main reasons I'm taking hormones.  Not passing can get you assaulted or worse so that's something I consider too.

If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride.  I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me.  The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.

hugs & smiles
helen

Quote from: HelenW on March 15, 2007, 09:00:24 PM
If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride.  I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me.  The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.

Did you always have this security and strength?

Or is it something you developed along the way?

Intellectually, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my emotions don't seem to take into account the character of the person hurting me

Kate

Sometimes I wonder about passing.  I had one time when (en femme) a jogger stopped and stared at a friend and I.  He was definitely staring at me as my friend passed very well.  And yet another time, in boy mode and attending Atlanta Pride, someone stepped out from one of the booths handed my wife and I some material of whatever they were promoting and said "Here you go ladies."  So I got clocked "en femme" and passed with a group of lesbians in boy mode?  And I was confused before?   

Bev