So, I'm a gay guy. I'm single. I want to date. I want to be upfront about my body from the beginning with potential partners, because I'm a guy, and I'm gay, and I'm going through puberty, and...basically there's a fair chance they'll be finding out about my body sooner rather than later. Like, on the first date.

The problem is that I pass. Seriously, that's the problem. It's no longer at all obvious that my body is female as long as my clothes are on. I can barely pass for female if I try. So if I tell a guy I'm trans, his mind does not go to "this is a guy with boobs and a vagina." No, I'm gay, so the immediate assumption is that I'm a pre-transition trans girl. With a penis.

Why is this a problem? Well, it's screening out the wrong guys. See, some gay guys are OK with "boy on testosterone with vagina." Others are OK with "girl still under influence of testosterone with penis." The two groups don't overlap very much. Group A is cool with strange anatomy, but wants a masculine male-gendered partner who's going to behave the way he expects; group B is OK with gender variance and genderplay, as long as the anatomy is familiarly male. (Some can't work with either, and the word "trans" scares them off, and that's good; others are OK with both, but they're mostly bi anyway, and they're a minority in the gay scene).

So I'm stuck. Either I have to proudly announce that I have a vagina, or I end up with guys who expect me to have a penis. And if the word "trans" escapes my lips before the word "vagina," there's no telling whether I'll ever get my potential partner's head straightened out about my anatomy. For all I know, I'll spend half an hour explaining, and he'll still leave the club with me thinking I'm a very confused and/or delusional T-girl.

It's kind of nice, in some ways, that the general public doesn't know FTMs exist. But...sigh. Do I look like an MTF?

No you definitely do not look like a woman but I've heard from other gay trans FTMs the same problem. And I do hear you on the general whole invisible thing. It is as if we don't exist. Even in our own community we're seen in a minority and non-existent.

What about finding an FTM partner?

Quote from: kyril on March 08, 2011, 04:53:52 AM
So, I'm a gay guy. I'm single. I want to date. I want to be upfront about my body from the beginning with potential partners, because I'm a guy, and I'm gay, and I'm going through puberty, and...basically there's a fair chance they'll be finding out about my body sooner rather than later. Like, on the first date.

The problem is that I pass. Seriously, that's the problem. It's no longer at all obvious that my body is female as long as my clothes are on. I can barely pass for female if I try. So if I tell a guy I'm trans, his mind does not go to "this is a guy with boobs and a vagina." No, I'm gay, so the immediate assumption is that I'm a pre-transition trans girl. With a penis.

Why is this a problem? Well, it's screening out the wrong guys. See, some gay guys are OK with "boy on testosterone with vagina." Others are OK with "girl still under influence of testosterone with penis." The two groups don't overlap very much. Group A is cool with strange anatomy, but wants a masculine male-gendered partner who's going to behave the way he expects; group B is OK with gender variance and genderplay, as long as the anatomy is familiarly male. (Some can't work with either, and the word "trans" scares them off, and that's good; others are OK with both, but they're mostly bi anyway, and they're a minority in the gay scene).

So I'm stuck. Either I have to proudly announce that I have a vagina, or I end up with guys who expect me to have a penis. And if the word "trans" escapes my lips before the word "vagina," there's no telling whether I'll ever get my potential partner's head straightened out about my anatomy. For all I know, I'll spend half an hour explaining, and he'll still leave the club with me thinking I'm a very confused and/or delusional T-girl.

It's kind of nice, in some ways, that the general public doesn't know FTMs exist. But...sigh. Do I look like an MTF?

First off, you DO NOT look like a MTF. You look like a biological male. Period.

Passing easily can get you in to some difficult situations at times. What about going with the phrase: I wasn't born a biological male? That's the opening I use (except I replace the word male with female  ). It's short, sweet, and to the point. Now some may require further explanation as they won't grasp the full meaning of these few words at first. Others will. I usually only bring this up to a guy after 3 dates (minimum). After they close their mouth and put their eyes back in to their sockets, it's either 1) I'm cool with that or 2) See ya.

Club hook-ups are fun... but it's not always the best place to have a quiet, meaningful, discussion about things. 

Quote from: Linus on March 08, 2011, 08:09:29 AM
No you definitely do not look like a woman but I've heard from other gay trans FTMs the same problem. And I do hear you on the general whole invisible thing. It is as if we don't exist. Even in our own community we're seen in a minority and non-existent.

What about finding an FTM partner?

Well, the thing is that I'm not looking for a relationship right now. (Actually, I never look for relationships, they just sort of develop out of friendships.) I just want to have some fun, be a normal young guy...never really had the chance to do that. So the sort of thing that I want, casual fun, is going to involve mostly cis guys, because mostly cis guys are looking for what I'm looking for. Which is fine, I love cis guys. It's just that the miscommunication gets a little frustrating sometimes.

Quote from: JennX on March 08, 2011, 09:00:25 AM
First off, you DO NOT look like a MTF. You look like a biological male. Period.

Passing easily can get you in to some difficult situations at times. What about going with the phrase: I wasn't born a biological male? That's the opening I use (except I replace the word male with female  ). It's short, sweet, and to the point. Now some may require further explanation as they won't grasp the full meaning of these few words at first. Others will. I usually only bring this up to a guy after 3 dates (minimum). After they close their mouth and put their eyes back in to their sockets, it's either 1) I'm cool with that or 2) See ya.

Club hook-ups are fun... but it's not always the best place to have a quiet, meaningful, discussion about things. 

Thanks. Yeah, I'm not willing to go to the 3-date minimum...3 dates for me is super serious. (Formal "dates" in general are super serious, I don't really play the dating game. Not my style.) I'm also not really comfortable with the "not born male" language...I've tried "I wasn't born with a dick" before, but that eventually just comes back around to vagina talk. God, I hate the word. Don't even like typing it.

Hmmm that's tricky. Well, do you have a prosthetic? such as Lola Jake? Reel Magik? etc? If you do just tell them you were born without a penis so you wear a prosthetic. And then maybe ease in about the other part. That way maybe you still have their attention with a fake penis since that means they can still receive if he's interested in that?

Also, if you yourself aren't open enough to include FTM's then how to do you expect cisguys to open up to the idea of you?

I could imagine how that would be frustrating.  The thought of passing routinely sounds so great that it's easy to overlook the possible issues that can come with it.  I like the idea of "born without a penis," but I guess that could come around too.  Sorry I'm not much help man.  If you figure out a good solution, let me know.

Jay, I read that as he's not looking for a relationship in general, not that he won't consider FtMs.

Perhaps you could try to explain your body as a form of intersex? (Because it is quite intersex at the moment I would assume)

And yeah, I think that since FTMs are far between it's unlikely for him to run into another one of us casually at a gay bar.

Quote from: SnailPace on March 08, 2011, 02:29:33 PM
Perhaps you could try to explain your body as a form of intersex? (Because it is quite intersex at the moment I would assume)

And yeah, I think that since FTMs are far between it's unlikely for him to run into another one of us casually at a gay bar.

Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, I'd be fine with hooking up an FTM if I happened to meet one and there was mutual interest, but that hasn't happened yet.

Re: intersex, I've thought about it, but I don't really feel right doing that.

Quote from: JayUnit on March 08, 2011, 12:28:05 PM
Hmmm that's tricky. Well, do you have a prosthetic? such as Lola Jake? Reel Magik? etc? If you do just tell them you were born without a penis so you wear a prosthetic. And then maybe ease in about the other part. That way maybe you still have their attention with a fake penis since that means they can still receive if he's interested in that?

Also, if you yourself aren't open enough to include FTM's then how to do you expect cisguys to open up to the idea of you?

Nah, I'm strictly a bottom, zero interest in anything that could be done with a prosthetic (on me...I'd be fine with sleeping with another FTM who used a prosthetic). I already have a reasonably big potential pool of partners just the way I am (plenty of strict tops who don't care about the size of their partner's equipment) and I don't really care about expanding it...I just need a clear way to communicate what's under my clothes so that if I'm not what my potential partner is looking for, we can go our separate ways.

Rejection is fine...as long as it doesn't happen after I've spent the last 2 hours chatting/drinking/making out with the guy, left with him, and now am standing on his doorstep with his hand down my pants. That's too late. I want a way to get it over with in the first 15 minutes.

Not sure I have any better ideas than what's been said.

I agree that trans does NOT work. FTM or female-to-male sometimes works in writing (e.g., online), but not in gay bar/club scenario - because people confuse which way.

I don't necessarily always like what his name connotes, but it seems that a decent amount of people seem to know who Buck Angel is. So I've discovered the reference to being someone "like him" can help sometimes if you don't want to talk about female body parts in specific. 

Yeah I didn't mean to sound bitchy when I said that hahah. I just have some FTM friends who date women but say things like they wouldn't date an MTF and I just wonder how they even think that.

How about saying something like, how you had a situation at birth that left you with a vagina? That way you make it clear what you have and also make it personal enough so that he doesn't have to ask any more questions. Of if he does ask questions it's easier to start there. But if it's just for a club hook up without getting too personal he can take it or leave it at that point.

Quote from: SnailPace on March 08, 2011, 02:29:33 PM
Perhaps you could try to explain your body as a form of intersex? (Because it is quite intersex at the moment I would assume)

for me this is the most simple way to explain it, not only for dates but to people who just don't understand the word transgender.
If you're just hooking up at bars and clubs, half-hour explanations are a nuisance. If things get more serious with a partner, you can go into further detail about your situation.

Kyril:

Well, I realize you may not want to hear from me, man, but I'll chime in anyway, because I've got lots of experience in life inasmuch as I am significantly older than most other people on this post.

All I can say to you is that there ARE people who will be cool with you exactly as you are, and THAT'S the God's honest truth.  Now, you may have to do some determined looking to find them.  In fact, you most likely will.  However, what's wrong with that?

As you well know, anything worthwhile in life requires effort and patience to obtain and sometimes substantially so.  You totally pass.  You are quite young.  You are majorly smart.  There are people, and plenty of them I daresay, who would be happy to find somebody like you. 

Seek and you will find.  Remember, with regard to sorting and screening potential partners, the old adage "Some will.  Some won't.  So what?  Next!" most aptly applies.  There are guys out there who would be into you ... good guys.  It's an individual proposition.  I'm just telling you that they ARE out there. 

Determination and persistence toward any goal usually does the trick.  Go for it, man.  You can do it.  What you want is there for the having.

Peace       Lacey Lynne

AH! I'm having similar issues. Its difficult I know!! My ideal B/F would be another FTM!