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More natural then we think ?

Started by espo, March 22, 2011, 06:03:08 PM

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espo

Quote from: yoxi on March 24, 2011, 05:41:35 PM
Well, I personally think that each quality that's labelled either masculine or feminine within any particular culture is actually just a human quality, that people all have the capacity to embody regardless of gender. There may be a statistical likelihood that one gender exhibits a quality more than any of the other genders within a given culture, but who can tell for sure to what extent that's just a product of cultural conditioning?

So for me, there are no genuinely masculine or feminine qualities, that's just a convention.

Others will disagree :).

That's what I'm thinking too. 
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espo

Quote from: lucaluca on March 25, 2011, 03:56:59 PM
to be honest... i did not read the other replys, because im too busy at the moment.

but i have to say, your question is GREAT!!! because i have an answer  :D and i am more curious what other people say to my answer  :laugh:

it is not his feminine side, when a guy cries watching a chick flick. it is not  her masculine side, when a girl likes to drink beer and watch soccer.

THAT IS THE HUUUUUGE PROBLEM... people tend do categorize someone because he likes ballet or she like monster truck (just an example).
as long as you don't have the inner feeling that you should supposed to be the other gender you are what you are, a male or a female. it doesn't matter what you do, because that does not define you (at least it doesn't define your gender).
i speak from my own experience! clothes, hobbys etc. all of that is a cultural thing. imagine men would wear dresses and make up ;) there is no god (don't wanna offend someone) who says that only girls can wear make up, or only boys can play football.

the point is... if you are male (and you are not a transsexual) you can like, do whatever you want and it does't make you any less male!!! why? well i guess is said that before ;)

hope you understand

tell me what you think
:angel:

A great answer to a great question   
The romans soldiers did wear what we would classify as a skirt, the egyptians did wear makeup so I think you're onto something
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Shana A

I don't believe in specifically male or female traits or behaviors, they're all within the range of human expression. It is our culture/society that judges them in a particular way.

What I do know is that I don't feel or perceive myself to be male. This perception isn't based on such things as liking pink (actually I look dreadful in pink, however purple rocks!) or frills, or whether I might cry at movies, but instead a deep awareness and understanding of my inner self and gender.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Juliet

Quote from: Zythyra on March 26, 2011, 12:05:25 PM

What I do know is that I don't feel or perceive myself to be male. This perception isn't based on such things as liking pink (actually I look dreadful in pink, however purple rocks!) or frills, or whether I might cry at movies, but instead a deep awareness and understanding of my inner self and gender.

Z

Are u able to articulate what the deep awareness and understanding is based on?

Simone Louise

OK, it's my turn. There is this ineffable, poorly understood gender ID, that inner knowledge or feeling that, as with Z, tells me I am not male. I have always known that and it has always affected my actions. It is akin to the sense that I am I, that I am the same entity I was when I was three years old, lying in my crib, listening to the grownups talking in the adjacent room.

But I also sense that there are two ways of dealing with the perceptions that we continually encounter. We can view the world as I-it, in which case, all is to be experienced and used. Or we can view the world as I-you, and, in that case, all are persons to whom we must be sensitive and to which we must respond. We are each capable of either response, but to treat the world as a collection of objects is the masculine response and to the other is the feminine response. Building relationships is a feminine goal; mastery is a male goal. To my daughter, her car is not a collection of metal, plastic, glass, and rubber parts, but a beloved creature named Betsy.

There was a letter in a recent newspaper column, written by a woman ready to divorce her mate, because she felt their marriage was without love. Her husband refused counseling, because, for him, the marriage was quite acceptable. They had sex several times a week, and she was an excellent homemaker and cook.

If we view the human with the tools of a scientist, we can say that the tendency toward these different viewpoints are the result of different areas of the brain developing larger or smaller, more tightly or more loosely connected because of exposure to hormones in utero, in infancy, and in puberty. One scientist remarked that many artists have feminine brains, sensitive to the feelings of others. Another writes the best therapists have female brains.

So, what is it that brings me to Susan's? Is it a female brain? Is it that I like to wear pastel pinks and purples and greens? Is it a desire to devote my life to those I love? Is it some strange nagging sense of self that is at odds with my body? That last, the gender ID, is certainly elusive, hard to explain and express, and so very real. I don't know how others function, but I love life, desire to live consciously and lovingly and fully and openly. If I have a female side or if I am female, no matter; I want to develop all my abilities to communicate, to relate, to be sensitive, and to respond. And if I have a male body and a brain shaped by male hormones, so be it. And if that be androgyne, then let's make the most of it--and live.

S
Choose life.
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Pica Pica

Quote from: espo on March 22, 2011, 06:03:08 PM
it was commented that even ci-people, for the most part, have a feminine side and a masculine side. 

I don't. I just got the mushy, fluid, interelated androgyne side - I'm more spherical than sidey.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Simone Louise

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 27, 2011, 01:42:17 PM
I don't. I just got the mushy, fluid, interelated androgyne side - I'm more spherical than sidey.

Has anyone told you, some of that fluid seems to be leaking out through your pores? You remind me of the blueberry girl in Charley and the Chocolate Factory.

S
Choose life.
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crazyandro

The thing is, being feminine doesn't make you a woman, and being masculine doesn't make you a man.  You're confusing gender identity with masculinity/femininity.  The two are completely different.  I'm genderqueer because the gender I know I am inside my soul is not male and not female, it is something else.  That has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine I am.
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Juliet

Quote from: crazyandro on March 27, 2011, 11:09:01 PM
The thing is, being feminine doesn't make you a woman, and being masculine doesn't make you a man.  You're confusing gender identity with masculinity/femininity.  The two are completely different.  I'm genderqueer because the gender I know I am inside my soul is not male and not female, it is something else.  That has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine I am.

So gender has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are?

babykittenful

Quote from: Juliet on March 28, 2011, 02:18:20 AM
So gender has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are?

This have to be the case, because what is seen as masculine or feminine only depends on the cultural background!

To go back with the example of the guy crying at a cinema, if he does so because he feels connected with the characters and is overflowed with emotions that he express by crying.... this is it. Nowhere in the chain of event that led to that man crying was there anything that got associated to gender. Maybe he had a thought or two about the fact that this isn't very manly, but he didn't cry because it wasn't a manly thing to do. He cried because... he's human and humans cry sometime!

On the other hand, if a man identify as genderqueer, and to that person, crying is a way of expressing some female part that is already inside that person, then yes, the fact that this guy is crying is an expression of his femininity, but only because he initially had this femininity inside of himself to begin with! Emotions don't change your gender, unless that emotion is directly linked to some kind of gender dysphoria.
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Juliet

That is so interesting.  Does anyone else feel differently, or does everyone agree that gender has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are?

Simone Louise

Quote from: Juliet on March 28, 2011, 04:51:47 PM
That is so interesting.  Does anyone else feel differently, or does everyone agree that gender has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are?

I disagree. True, one's internal gender ID is the ultimate determiner of gender. At the same time, I cannot conceive that one would identify with a gender and not express that gender through words and actions in accord with their culture and their individual situation. The words of some religion's writings come to mind: "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit..."

S
Choose life.
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crazyandro

Juliet- It's associated, but it doesn't define it.  I'd say that masculinity/femininity is how your culture /expects/ you to act based on your gender.
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Jaimey

Quote from: Juliet on March 28, 2011, 04:51:47 PM
That is so interesting.  Does anyone else feel differently, or does everyone agree that gender has nothing to do with how masculine or feminine you are?

I think that's what everyone has been trying to get at.  Masculinity/femininity are words that describe behavior/mannerisms/speech...behavioral/physical things generally and those things are defined by one's culture. 

Gender is just a part of who you are.  You can identify as a woman without seeming feminine on the outside and vice versa.  I consider myself to be a male-identified androgyne, but I have masculine and feminine mannerisms/speech/etc.  The feminine mannerisms (I use a variety of adjectives, for example...white/cream/eggshell/off-white: I'll use all of those, which is a more feminine speech characteristic) don't make me less of a male-identified androgyne.
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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Padma

A lot of behaviour is about "protective mimicry" :) - when I'm with a bunch of gay men, I catch myself getting campier sometimes in order to fit in better. When I'm around tough people, I get more cockney (a survival habit I learned at school) etc. I watch groups of teenagers (not in a stalking way!) and see each little group with their own way of walking, gesturing, speech patterns that defines them as a group, and remember doing that myself, and that I'm not that person any more. Girls learn how to be girls from each other, boys from boys, once they grow out of trying to be like their parents. And we get older and become more ourselves, as we work out what that is. And those of us who don't fit into the norms tend to have to work that out more deeply, since we're constantly swimming upstream against the normative current, and our sense of who we are is constantly getting challenged by the Normative Border Guards.

And then we might end up somewhere like here, still asking each other: am I alright like this? :)
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Kinkly

society tells us that the rules for being male or female exist if all the "gender rules" are to hard for you to keep when everybody else seems happy to live by these rules you start to question if you are trying to live by the wrong rules. if you live as someone who breaks gender rules because they feel wrong then you start questioning your gender.  from a young age I had mixed messages about gender I was told by one important adult that boys don't cry while other said it was ok for me to cry.
one day when told to stop crying because boys don't cry I replied "maybe I don't want to be a boy" I think I was about 8.   Being Male has always felt wrong because I'm not like other Males.  A Feminine male  who is able to relate to other males has no issue with gender identity.  Not everybody who breaks the rules is somehow androgyne/genderqueer unless they need to know why they are different and how they are different if I could live as a femme male I would but to live as me I need to throw away the Male rulebook without conforming to the female rule book if you can live with your assingned rulebook then you are cisgender if the other rulebook is right for you then you are a binary trans person if both rulebooks are wrong for you overall then androgyne/genderqueer/non binary gender you may be
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
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espo

So how we use the word gender is incorrect, gender and sex is the same thing, its physical  If my body looks girl but I desire or lean towards the boy role then that's all it is, a desire or attraction to the boy role.  Gender isn't an inside sex, the only thing inside us is our desire/feelings/attraction or a WISH to be in the role that society gave to one or both of the sexes  and sometimes it matches with our physical body and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's both, which is super cool because then you get twice as much freedom.
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Simone Louise

Quote from: espo on March 29, 2011, 03:36:07 PM
So how we use the word gender is incorrect, gender and sex is the same thing, its physical  If my body looks girl but I desire or lean towards the boy role then that's all it is, a desire or attraction to the boy role.  Gender isn't an inside sex, the only thing inside us is our desire/feelings/attraction or a WISH to be in the role that society gave to one or both of the sexes  and sometimes it matches with our physical body and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's both, which is super cool because then you get twice as much freedom.

From what I've learned in three years in the unicorn forest, gender incongruity is about as much desire, feelings, attraction, or wish as migraine headaches or ADHD. Physical sex and chromosomal sex are parts of gender (One therapist writes that gender has five components). Gender ID is an internal sense, independent of the external. It is ill-researched and ill-understood and not externally, objectively testable, but it is nonetheless real and innate. Like Kinkly, most of us realized we didn't fit in at an early age. Many of us spent years trying to fit in, with varying degrees of success. But a deep sense of frustration was never far from the surface, often accompanied by shame, guilt, despair, etc. Yes, there is a sense of freedom and release from acknowledging this aspect of who I am, but I haven't found that it the way to deal with it easy or obvious.

S
Choose life.
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Juliet

Quote from: Simone Louise on March 29, 2011, 04:49:57 PM
From what I've learned in three years in the unicorn forest, gender incongruity is about as much desire, feelings, attraction, or wish as migraine headaches or ADHD.
I wouldn't go that far

espo

I'm not saying we decide to take this on. I didn't and I doubt anyone does but if something like gender can't be explained then the word might be used incorrectly which is where all the confusion comes in. I'm just throwing my thoughts in the ring
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