Quote from: katiahate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.

Quote from: jamesBrine on January 29, 2007, 08:57:23 PM
Hello,
I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James

i like your idea jamesbrine, so i will start the thread and list the following links as my sources:


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/


http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

One of the best arguments that I've heard against deity as usually portrayed by Christians elucidates the inherent contradiction: Since unfortunate things sometimes happen, then deity must be either unaware of it (thus not omniscient), powerless to stop it (thus not omnipotent), or content in allowing it (thus not benevolent). So if there is a god then said being cannot simultaneously be all knowing, all powerful, and all good.

Okay.

I think there overwhelming evidence that Christianity is a lie in totality.

First of all, it's completely irrational - there is no basis of fact in which to believe in a God, or that the alleged bible has any truth in it. It makes just as much sense to beleive in the Force from Star Wars as Christianity.

Bri

Allegory (a myth, but with some merit)!

Particularly with the evidence science and other education provides us today, there's no defense for pushing a well-contradicted mythology as fact.  Still, certain carefully-chosen stories from The Bible make for suitable fables that we can apply to every-day life (even in our current age).  It won't provide all the answers one needs, but those appropriate chunks of reading should be considered literary "classics" if for no other reason than because of their influence.

It'd just be nice if the most prominent Christian philosophers (Church leaders) focused on delivering those lessons rather than dwelling on "miracles."  Less time for BS means more time for doing good works and showing love to others.  Some denominations already accomplish these ends very substantially, but there are actually groups who are so far down the other end, they actually bring people to be selfish and hateful.

God helps those who help themselves..... I was told this at a very young age and it stuck....
Man was created in gods image.......... something else I was told at a very young age which stuck...
God is good, he lets you suffer to prove your strenght....

There are many others... but Ive figured out how to make them all right... and totaly tick off the establishment in the proces....

God helps those who help themselves....  There fore we are god sence we are doing all the work.
Man was created in gods immage...  But we are god, so therefore isnt it the other way around?
God is good, he lets you suffer to prove your strenght...   "No we are god, and we let people suffer because we find humor in cruelty, and many find the suffering of others funny... and the rest of those who dont help are too lazy.... and it all falls back to helping those who help themselves dosnt it?

Well,  Im god, I help others, I help myself the best I can... and you know what... my suffering has made me strong... and it has made my fath strong...  I beleave in the human spirit.... and WE being human therefore become god in spirit.... heheheh.  The universe created us to try and understand itsself, so in the end it dosnt really matter does it?      Yeah Im twisted    but those are my thoughts

Enjoy and I hope I managed to get this to look and read somewhat cohearntly.

Why does it have to be truth or myth?  Why can't it be truth and myth at the same time?

Because that is indeed what it is.

While I'd be classed as a non-believer I can't see where religion is a myth for it exists in many forms with just as many gods the world over.

Steph

Oh wow, this can of worms?  Here's a previously opened can: Is God A Myth?

Melissa

Which model of Christianity are we referring to here?

The conservative, God-as-'Stern Father' model?

Or the liberal, 'nurturant God' model?

Remember, the two models above are two nodes on a continuum, not a binary.  In that sense, it's a lot like the gender continuum.

Where do you stand on Christianity, or on your form of religion/worship in general?

Figuring that out may help to come to personal terms with the question posed in the topic title.

Karen

Quote from: Katia on January 30, 2007, 01:37:34 AM

i like your idea jamesbrine, so i will start the thread and list the following links as my sources:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

Big can of worms.  But I hope you have better sources than these.  As someone who reads and studies in both Greek and Hebrew, both of these sites are incredibly unscholarly and downright laughable.  I hate seeing stuff like this paraded in the guise of scholarship.  And to the unknowing it can appear very convincing. 

Kristi

What I believe:
The Bible was primarily developed by religious and state leaders who held the power in the city-states and wanted more power by controlling the beliefs of the citizens (who were mostly illiterate and had to go to church to be told what to do and believe). Many gospels were not included in the Bible because they conflicted with the rest of the texts. Some scholars and theologians believe (have demonstrated?) that these other gospels showed that Jesus was not the "son of God" and that we all have the potential for manifesting Christ-consciousness. Those that hold power DO NOT want "ordinary" citizens to believe that they, too, can be like Christ. I also believe that all the rules in the Bible (e.g. Leviticus) were constructed by men to act in the same way as conventional laws. People needed to be controlled so that there wasn't general lawlessness. What better way to make them "stick" than telling people that GOD said so! And when you throw in the threat of burning in Hell for all eternity, it sounds like a brilliant method concocted to control others. That said, I do believe that some of the biblical authors were divinely inspired and then struggled to put those experiences into human words.

What I have experienced:
I was raised Lutheran and abandoned the concept of the biblical God when I was an undergrad studying molecular biology. I spent many years as an agnostic. A year ago, I had a personal crisis (mentally) that caused me to investigate Vedanta philosophy (Hinduism) and Buddhism because I no longer wanted to rely on my little damaged ego to "run the show". I have since had deeply, deeply felt subjective experiences in which I felt a profound connection with "Spirit in 2nd person". I believe in God now as something that is beyond all that we see and is, by definition, indefinable. We cannot know, intellectually, that which is beyond the human mind.

I appreciate what all of you have contributed to this post. I especially resonated with the felt comments of you, LynnER, in that I actually believe we are all manifestations of this undefinable G-d. In the Bible, the concept of God is a human projection reversed. We are not made in God's image, any more than a blade of grass is made in God's image. God in the bible IS made in our image. The human ego made it so.

Thanks everyone.
Namaste.

>
For anyone that is interested in reading more about my experiences, check out my blog:
www.undercovertranssexual.org

Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 09:38:57 AM
What I believe:
The Bible was primarily developed by religious and state leaders who held the power in the city-states and wanted more power by controlling the beliefs of the citizens (who were mostly illiterate and had to go to church to be told what to do and believe). Many gospels were not included in the Bible because they conflicted with the rest of the texts. Some scholars and theologians believe (have demonstrated?) that these other gospels showed that Jesus was not the "son of God" and that we all have the potential for manifesting Christ-consciousness. Those that hold power DO NOT want "ordinary" citizens to believe that they, too, can be like Christ.

I was wondering when we would see the Da Vinci Code paraded as historical fact.  You, of course, may believe whatever you wish.  But the vast majority of scholars and historians have debunked that version of the canonization of scripture so soundly that it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact.  Have you read these other gospels?  I have.  In fact, they do not deal with the issue you want to ascribe to them, except perhaps in a very peripheral way.  They certainly did not have that as their agenda.

Kristi

  Since the title is whether Christianity is truth or a myth I will give my views and of course you are entitled to yours as well.
  I personally find it truth.
  To start, I am considered a heretic by the mainstream churches. That is because I used their hate and scriptural limitations to drive me to find that truth. Not let it turn me to hate it or disprove it.
  Every time I went beyond their doctrinal limitations they kicked me out. If they knew I am transgender they would as well.
  The entire belief of Christianity is based on faith in what we don't see. Anyone can believe what they see. That takes no faith, just eyes. But to believe in that which we don't see takes faith as most think you're crazy or some sort of lunatic or fanatic.
  The church world has gotten so much wrong and backwards they cause many to quit believing and make such a mockery out of God that an unbeliever doesn't see a people saved by grace and changed, but rather a bunch of looneys. (and many times rightly so)
  The word of God says the signs would follow. The faith comes first. Today they look for signs first so they can believe and even the pharisees said come down from the cross that we might see and believe.
  I cannot speak for other Christians but I do know whom I believe and I am persuaded he can keep my soul. I had faith and then saw the miracles.
  I do know what it is like to have an out-of-body experience which I seldom share because it is only mocked by unbelievers. I have seen miraculous healings but that too, I hesitate to share, because like the out-of-body experience it is only mocked. Furthermore, people are supposed to be renewed in faith and not by signs and wonders. Not mine or any other person's.
  In my case the Lord granted the signs because of my faith, not to give me faith.
  I do not down those who do not believe. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and it is not up to me to judge. The sad part is that one day we will all stand before a judgment seat that some have seen in this life already and give an answer for what we believe.
  You all can believe what you want. I have merely told you what and why and how I believe and how it differs from the mainstream churchworld and those who have persecuted so many here.
  Take care.
  Tiff

Kristi:
What I find amusing is how what I started with, "What I believe," was then flipped into, "I was wondering when we would see the Da Vinci Code paraded as historical fact." What I believe = paraded as historical fact? Hee. I never saw the Da Vinci Code. I've read what I posted in books discussing Gnosticism. Go ahead and rip that apart if you'd like, too. In similar vain: "it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact." Again, "What I believe" got flipped to "purport as fact." Lovely. Nice work. And then you state "In fact...except" in the second-to-last sentence. This couldn't get easier. Yet, I respect and honor you for the divine that you are, regardless of the words you use, nonetheless. Do you have anything useful to add?

Def. Faith belief that is not based on proof.

Def. Faith is a belief, trust, or confidence, not based merely on logic, reason, or empirical data, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole

Bible Def. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I am a Christian. But I can not show you proof of my God except for what you see in me.
If I do not act as a loving caring person then you can dismiss may faith as being worthless and irrelevant
as may of you have already declare my faith to be. But if I am person of character who loves and cares for other even above myself; then you should at lest accept that my faith seems to work for me.

Many here at Susan's have declared in other posting that they have grown stronger because of all the struggles they have had to go thru.
I call this life a journey a train ground, it's a place for me to become the person God wants me to be. Yes I have and will continue to struggle thru this life, but one day, God will take me to a new and better world.
Just my opinion.

Jillieann

Quote from: Karen on January 30, 2007, 08:42:34 AM
Which model of Christianity are we referring to here?

The conservative, God-as-'Stern Father' model?

Or the liberal, 'nurturant God' model?

i [thought] jamesbrine & i were talking about the [conservative] god when i started this thread..

Quote from: Kristi on January 30, 2007, 09:30:20 AM

Big can of worms.  But I hope you have better sources than these.  As someone who reads and studies in both Greek and Hebrew, both of these sites are incredibly unscholarly and downright laughable. 
Kristi

perhaps you may want to cite some of those [studies/books/links/sources] in [greek] and [hebrew] so that we can discuss them. i'll be listing more of my sources in time.

Is it just me or do others find it odd that people like to cite physical sources for something that isn't physical?

P.s. Melissa, thank you for digging up the link to that thread.

Quote from: Kiera on January 30, 2007, 06:25:00 PMjames and katia, why just pick on christianity?? All of the "religious systems" today seem to be more or less flawed and prone to suffer from some form of misconception and malady which I think is due in large part to modern day life and our condition as modern day "man". (speaking generically here, ok?) lol

Why pick on the Christianity?  It just happens to be the one that is so ingrained and integrated into the American culture (among others) that they can't get away from it.  We're just a month removed from the Christmas season, after all, and a non-Christian with a pulse can attest to how pervasive Christianity is during that time.  It's in the greetings, parties (notably with family), sales and stores, decorations on buildings, holidays, sporting events, television programming and ads, etc.  And Christianity is in *politics* and (implicitly) *education* year round, and they are two of the most formative institutions in a society.  It can grate on one's nerves, and since non-Christians often lack a means of recourse, they're relegated to ranting about it on Internet message boards.

Maybe agnostics and atheists could use their own "non-religious" days of celebration.   I'd look for something in August, because of the lack of holidays in there already.

Quote from: Kiera on January 30, 2007, 06:25:00 PMI on the other hand would feel much more comfortable with the agnostic label - I'd rather not know what to believe and attempt to embrace all than just totally give up all purpose and understanding as being completely pointless and lost!!

Agnosticism has pretty broad meaning.  I'm in the "ignostic" subset that ignores religion as literal accounts because of the high improbability of their accuracy, and often the inability to verify such compilations.  "Embrace all" rings a bit ambiguous to me, so I can't really comment on it.  However, it is my belief that even if all miracle-based religions are wrong, I believe our lives are still with meaning: it's just that we need to give them meaning.  We don't need to do someone's will so that we can have a good afterlife -- we can love each other so that others (and their offspring) can lead richer lives even after we are dead.

Quote from: Jillieann on January 30, 2007, 09:54:06 PMIf I do not act as a loving caring person then you can dismiss may faith as being worthless and irrelevant
as may of you have already declare my faith to be. But if I am person of character who loves and cares for other even above myself; then you should at lest accept that my faith seems to work for me.

Therefore, religion should be a personal thing.  It's not something to be *pushed on* others through compulsory attention but to be *evaluated by* others on their own terms.

Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
Kristi:
I never saw the Da Vinci Code. I've read what I posted in books discussing Gnosticism. Go ahead and rip that apart if you'd like, too. In similar vain: "it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact." Again, "What I believe" got flipped to "purport as fact." Lovely. Nice work. And then you state "In fact...except" in the second-to-last sentence. This couldn't get easier.

OK, Colin.  Now I understand where you are coming from.  Sorry if I came to a wrong conclusion about that.  It sounded like you were going somewhere else.

As I said, you have every right to be a gnostic if you wish and I would defend that right, even if it is not where I am coming from.  Some even see gnostic influences in the Gospel of John.  We can discuss that sometime if you wish, but I'm afraid that gnosticism is getting pretty far afield of the intention of this topic.

Quote from: katia on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PMYet, I respect and honor you for the divine that you are, regardless of the words you use, nonetheless. Do you have anything useful to add? 

As I respect you, but not because either of us are divine.

Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
perhaps you may want to cite some of those [studies/books/links/sources] in [greek] and [hebrew] so that we can discuss them. Smiley i'll be listing more of my sources in time.

OK, if you really want them, here are my primary resources:

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgardensia  c. 1983 ed. W. Rudolph and H.P Ruger

A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament ed. William L. Holladay  c 1971 by E. J. Brill, the Netherlands

Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece  c 1979  Biblia-Druck Stuttgart

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed.  by Walter Bauer, ed. Gingrich and Danker, University of Chicago Press, 1979

And, for a good, concise history of the Christian movement, rather unbiased, I suggest the following:

A History of Christianity In the World:  from persecution to uncertainty by Clyde L. Manschreck, c 1974 by Prentice Hall, inc Englewood Cliffs, NJ

I am not sure if any of the above are available online, but they may be.  But please know that when I call resources laughable it is because I consider the linguistic and historical skills of the author lacking.  I don't mind if you disagree, but I do have a right to voicing an educated opinion.

For a fair discussion and critique of Christianity and its problems in society I like this blog:  http://ceruleansanctum.com/2007/01/busting-myths-about-christianity-assessing-myths-4-6.html

As far as whether Christianity itself is a myth, I guess it depends on how you define myth.  So I'm not even sure we are talking to each other yet.

For myself, I'll give a really quick overview.  This is my story in a nutshell, and it is a bit unique.  My background is in science, as is my undergraduate degree.  I grew up in a nominally Christian home and was pretty much an agnostic in my early years.  I eventually studied paleontology with one of my heroes, then went on to study geochemistry (the study of the origin of the elements) with a leading scientist from the Max Planck Institute.  Instead of becoming (as some of my colleagues did) more grounded in agnostic and atheistic thought, I found the explanations of what I studied sorely lacking because none could explain a good reason for the orderliness found in every aspect of the universe.  (The laws of thermodynamics predict just the opposite, for example.)  This led me to further explorations of the grand unified theory, or GUT.  This also proved intellectually fruitless to me in respect to an order in the universe.

So, unlike others, I was intellectually driven to explore God.  I was told that Christians especially were stupid, uneducated, and just plain sub-normal.  Although I have been appalled at some things that have happened in the church, I also found, to my surprise, an amazing amount of good.  And I came across Christian intellectuals the likes of Francis Shaeffer, Dietrich Boenhoffer, Helmut Thielicke, and C. S. Lewis, individuals whose intellect had led them to embrace Christianity.  Through a long process I came to embrace it, not only with my mind, but in my heart, not just as some kind of fire insurance, but as a way of life.  My studies, including my graduate degrees,  have taken a different course since my scientist-wannabe days, but I reject the notion that one much check his/her brain at the door of the church in order to be a Christian.  Quite the opposite, I found no such unity of thought in any other religious system.  I say this not to offend anyone, for I know others on here disagree.  But please do give Christians the right to be heard without being put down as being uneducated or naive because of their faith.

Peace, Please!

Kristi

From the years that I'd studied christianity, I can see that there are many ways that people take things, there are certainly more than a dozen different beliefs out there.  I was enrolled in a private school for that very reason other than safety.  I lived in the ghetto drive by shootings and murders at the local schools were nothing new, gang rapings were an everyday occurance. I was forced to goto school that was set up in that format,  I enjoyed it until one day I had an ipheny*sp that I was brainwashed to belive certain things, over the years I have tried my hardest to forget it.


You have the right wing christian radicals that are the utmost nutty people you'll ever meet.
Then you've got people who do the healing touching thing,  .   You've got people like my sister that gave away more money than most people make in a lifetime, of her previous husbands money, it went to a church.  He lost a house and everything else because she was a giver and believed she would be on the rite hand of god by doing so..../she has turned out to be the most selfish person I know, my nephew is in drug rehab because of her ways....its all about her and how pretty she looks the 4 kids come last, did christianity teach her this....Im uunsure about that kinda.  How convenient it is better to give than receive!  I hate the saying, and find it untrue, I've given all my life and got the shaft everytime.

I'm still christian but I dont follow the teachings much if at all, I dont go to church, I see no reason to.  I work 7- 16 hour days and havent got time to anyways.  People that say you havent got time to give to the lord?! Umm listen its like this you do your thing, I'll do my thing, we'll see who comes on top and who's bills are paid on time.

Still dont know what god you want to believe in?  pick one  its all the same  you either go to heave/safe place or straight to hell to burn alive,........actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.