Quote from: VannaSiamese on April 03, 2011, 10:18:26 PM
Sorry I have taken so long to reply... I just decided to spend some time away from the internet and really think about things.
I feel I can better articulate my feelings now, and pinpoint more of what is disturbing me so bad.  I have become completely obsessed with transitioning... perfecting an image that isn't exactly me.  I feel more that I am an androgynous person who favors the feminine side, but I have been putting so much emphasis on being an overly feminine woman.  I spend so much time focusing on myself that I fail to see the big picture anymore.   I have devoted every spare second of energy and every spare dollar I have towards transitioning...and this obsession I'm having isn't healthy for me.
I tried to figure out where exactly things went wrong, and I think I have a good starting place.  In 2008 I moved to Oregon and met a friend who also wanted to transition.  We became very best friends and spent every second together... and both began transitioning together.  In a way we would compete with each other, but I preferred to be more neutral and she preferred to be more feminine.  One night after we got off the phone (and everything seemed ok), she hung herself in her closet.  Ever since that moment I have sorta lost site of my transition, and gone in a direction that wasn't exactly suiting for me. 
I feel I am just a really androgynous person... I really prefer not to be seen as male or female, but I would much rather prefer female because of how feminine I already am.  So, the last few days I have been binding my boobs down, not wearing makeup and wearing sorta neutral cloths.  Everyone still thinks I'm a woman, but I feel comfortable with myself.  At this point I don't care anymore if people think I'm a girl or a boy... and I think that's the right step at this point.  I am still slowly taking myself off hormones to see how I feel, but starting them again is always an option.  Although, I don't anticipate that I will start them again if I actually do get off.
I've cried everyday for the last week because I feel sad that I am moving away from the last two years of my life.  However, I feel relieved that the nightmare in my head is over.  It's sort of a double edged sword, but I think this is the right move for me at this moment.
This morning I got out of the shower and I saw myself for who I really am... I looked in the mirror at my face and I didn't think male or female.  I saw my shoulders and didn't think "too broad for a girl."  Instead I looked at them as beautiful shoulders.   I saw my round hips and didn't think "female hips" or my legs and think "too bony for dresses..."  I simply saw my body.  Instead of seeing myself as man or female, I saw myself as a beautiful person, and that was one of the best feelings I've had in a long time.
I am honestly terrified about getting of hormones, because that means I'll age as a man again... but maybe that is what I need.  I guess only time will tell =)  You all have no idea how much I appreciate each of your responses... I read every word of every response and all I can say is wow... where else could I get this kind of support?  You all truly care about me, and I care about you =)
No matter what happens, boy, girl or super androgynous person that people scratch their head at and wait to see which bathroom it goes into... I will always be one of you.. and that's something I also realized today =)

since you said that going off hormones makes you uncomfortable, i wouldn't suggest it. just that shows that you do have gender dysphoria. most people don't look in the mirror and think about how male or female they look. cisgendered people particularly. it sounds like everything you said is normal feelings, and that they aren't really conflicting with you living as a female. you don't have to always see yourself as female to be female. it sounds like you consciously think about it. just being able to look in the mirror and see yourself as a beautiful person and not in gender would indicate you are in peace with yourself. the reason most transsexuals transition is for that reason, to feel at peace, and be able to express themselves to the world as they truly desire. when you learn to let go of gender, trust me, you'll be much happier. it seems like you're thinking that letting go of the constant preoccupation of a female identity will make you not female. honestly, why do you need to always think about that? who really does? maybe the only time you might think about it is if someone asks you directly, but you should always remember you are a human being first, your gender is a secondary part of you. also, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to be seen as male or female. i think most of use here would agree that our lives would be much easier without the gender binary. the reality is, we don't live in a world like that yet, and the vast majority of people will still gender us as either male or female. i've questioned myself before, and wondered if i really should become female or if i should be androgynous. that seemed to suit my needs more, but then i realized that i can't control what everyone thinks i am. i stopped using my gender as the end all be all factor of how people would treat me. it's pretty well impossible to find one identity that can define everything you are perfectly.

That's what I meant when I said it sounded like you were on the cusp of realization.

I am happy you have gotten to the core of it and discovered something true about yourself. :-)

That said, I wouldn't act hastily at this stage since the emotions are still fresh and raw, but I am glad to hear you see a way forward now that doesn't involve false images of yourself.

Best wishes.

I am so sorry to hear about your friend Vanna. I admire your strength.

That was more what I wanted to hear Vanna. ( the part abouit personal identity) I knew it but needed to hear it from you. Never look outside yourself when you are trying to find your own individual. Slowly coming off hormones will tell you if it is right or not and question the agenda why. I hope for love, equality, and fullfilment for you.
Love Ang....

Look Vanna.

Let me put this real simple for you. There are those who want feminine perfection and there are those of us who just want to be female, whether we are feminine or not. I'm in the latter camp.

I had SRS when I was still young, but I never had anything else, not FFS, not BA. I didn't even have counseling, but that is another story. I have no doubts or regrets, but I am a long way away from being a stereotypical little woman.

My aim was never to become uber femme, just to be of female sex. I never looked at myself with the critical eye that you describe being disturbed by either. I too like my shoulders, and I like my face.

I regard myself as fairly gender neutral when it comes to all the guff about psychology. Just because you don't want to be an extreme doesn't mean that you necessarily want to be male either.

One can be an androgynous male or an androgynous female. To anyone who lacks understanding these two options may seem very close. They may even look identical. Yet the idea of being first option fills me with unspeakable horror, whilst the second I am happy to admit to and own to some degree.

In other words whether you should have SRS or not depends NOT on how you want to present, but how you feel about your genitals. Nothing else matters in that decision.

If you are comfortable with them then don't go cutting them about. If you aren't then really even if you chose to end up dressing and presenting in a masculine style post surgery you will be happier with them done.

Heck for a while post surgery I went for the uber butch lesbian look. I had a buzz cut and I wore male style suits. I looked the part perfectly, and evidently other people were very happy with my presentation because I got consistently read as a lesbian (and even sometime abused as a dyke). Despite my origins I was thankfully seldom if ever read as male.

I still am a person who periodically reinvents myself. My masculine feminine balance is in a constant state of movement and that is how I like things. One day I can be uber butch, another quite femme, mostly I am somewhere in between. The only thing I won't alter is my physical sex. That was always meant to be female.

As regards HRT if you have been on it for some time (one to two years) you may have testicular atrophy. If that is the case, then I am afraid that you will need to take some form of HRT for the rest of your life. You could of course take testosterone, but if you like the effects of estrogen then there is nothing to stop you continuing with that. Either way what you should not imagine is that you can just take nothing, because there is a good chance that if your testes have atrophied then you may develop osteoprorosis.

My concern in what I read from you is this. You seem to have realised, as many of us do, that you don't want to be this barbie like image of female perfection that some people in this community seek, but you seem to think that it is not permissible to merely want to be an androgynous female.

Basically you need to address these two issues separately.

The first is how masculine or feminine do you want to be?
The second is do you want to be genitally male or female?

The answers are emphatically NOT linked, despite the fact that the idiot doctors who treat us often want to use the answer to the first to try and determine the answer to the second.

Oh and to all those who thought that I and a few others were pushing SRS - I hope you can now see that that is not the case. I am merely trying to make Vanna think this through more carefully and not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I hope you will find your answer, but please think this through carefully. It's not as black and white as you may suppose.

Now your were i am at but you didn't get GRS or FFS. I am living legally as female and my female name is still Danielle But i call myself Danie and i wear mens clothes. I am happy i am not trying to be some Barbie doll like i had done when i first started in the 90's. I had followed many others and should have just followed my heart. Today i am a butch female who passes off and on as a male. Now, i have no facial hair, except a few long ones that people see and think he/she couldn't have shaved around those few long hairs. That has people scratching their heads. I also have some ear piercings and well out here in the country thats rare. I also look 12 yrs younger due to FFS which has people think i am not my age i tell them. But i do all the things i love to do and building is one of them. I bought and old house built in 1820's and i have been restoring it here in central pa Amish country. I am so glad i do not have to live up to others here or other TS sisters approval or mens approval etc etc. I am glad i got my GRS and am not bothered by that nasty male sex drive which i hated. I still have small B boobs since getting my 12 yr old implants removed due to age but one day i will get that removed too. i will always stay legally female and people will see me as a kinda FTM if they don't know me personally. Thats a ok place for me. You have to find your place and it shouldn't be up to others standards especially from places like this where their is tons of peer pressure to be ultra femme or as femma as possible. Its ok not to be as femme as possible. Find your place and following your heart and live your life. You may get GRS or you may not thats your choice and no one here should try to make you feel like you have to get it because thats what they would do if they were you. Be an INDIVIDUAL   BE YOURSELF

This is all just so sad. Losing your friend had to be a very heartbreaking and traumatic experience for you, and it's no wonder it caused you to focus on your motivations. You would naturally retreat back to where you felt safe, and that seems to be what you are struggling with. I have no grand advice or long speeches to make, only to say listen to your own heart above all else. Sometimes it is difficult to discern her voice amongst all the noise, but find your quiet place and I'm sure she will not misguide you.

Not all women are judgmental. Maybe the ones you mentioned were just jealous.   But you have reached a point where you don't care what people think of you, and I will say that it exactly the place I had to reach within myself before I could even think about transition. Whatever you do, do it for yourself and no one else. There's no rule book that says you have to be or act a certain way to be yourself; only you know how to do that best. Big hugs and best wishes with whatever you decide.

Quote from: VannaSiamese on April 02, 2011, 03:17:22 PM
1. I have excessive amounts of guilt over the fact that I left my family and friends, moved 2500 miles away, changed my name and became a woman.  I feel as if I betrayed all of them.

This is the thing that caught my eye when I read your first post. I can relate to that because I moved from my family because my parents were emotionally abusing me, so I moved out so that I could have a clear head for the rest of high school.

Now I don't want to cause you any emotional distress by saying this, but the thing that disturbed me most about your posts is that you only briefly mentioned this once [correct me if I'm wrong though]. If your parents, family, and friends all loved you, then you made a huge mistake. Love isn't an obligation, and it's definitely not guarantee in life. It can be here one moment, and then gone the next. If we don't value what's there, or even pretend that other things have more value than it, then we lose sight of reality and who we really are on the inside.

I don't know if that's the cause of all your problems, or if your family even loved you. But I it's definitely something that you should put a lot more thought into. I'm really sorry if I hurt you with my words, I only want to help.

Hi Vanna,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here.
I recognised a lot in what you wrote !
I am actually trying to deal with something perhaps simular
in my own way.

I was not raised exactly as a boy because I had no masculine talents that enabled me to be one. On the other hand, I was not raised a girl, and therefor missed out on being able to develop the talents that I do have.

I started transitioning when I was 31, so I have this rather "masculine" body that in my view is never going to be good enough for me to feel good about myself as a woman. Even though I pass rather well, when I look in the mirror I always see a boy.

31 years old and having no real experience on what life is about as a woman, how to behave, what to do, what not to do, what to wear, how to deal with the fact that I am a TS, always afraid that I turn out a freak just like I was when I was a feminine guy...has also made me feel as if I have less freedom then I had before. Its because suddenly I feel the pressure coming to me from all directions.

I feel really bad about my looks, am terrible insecure and that is whyI have decided for myself not to do the surgery for now, and just be a ->-bleeped-<-. I am very open about what I am, because that makes me feel more comfortable around people. I am not exactly a man, and not exactly a woman. I know I am one inside. But I simply cannot deal with the pressure of having to be a real woman.

It makes me feel so bad about my situation and my looks, that it seems better for me to accept myself as a TS, and with that free myself from some of the pressure that I feel, when having to prove myself as a girl/woman. Im just to insecure for that.

I know perhaps a very different story here.
But I do recognise some of the things you are saying.

x
Birgitta

Quote from: Birgitta on April 05, 2011, 02:48:07 PM
I feel really bad about my looks, am terrible insecure and that is whyI have decided for myself not to do the surgery for now, and just be a ->-bleeped-<-.

Just be you, love yourself please .  The 'T' word you use as a self-descriptor, it's not a way I'd ever describe myself, (other forms of the word absolutely Transwoman, transgendered.  But the word you're using has an association with emphasising sex and making the person who bears that name a sexual object.  Please stop using that word it's the source of alot of your problems.

Quote from: Birgitta on April 05, 2011, 02:48:07 PM
I am very open about what I am, because that makes me feel more comfortable around people. I am not exactly a man, and not exactly a woman. I know I am one inside. But I simply cannot deal with the pressure of having to be a real woman.

I think other people have covered ditching trying to live up to some perfection of womanhood, just the fact it's perfect makes it indefinable and never attainable by anyone.

*Big hug*, you're worth so much   Having a self-esteem issue concerning looks is hard I know, many would sympathize with us   It's when you cease to care so much that being a good person is what matters above all

Very good post C.J.
The list for qualifying is never ending and if we don't realise this doubt grows in our mind. We want to qualify because of the belief that there's such a thing as perfection (an idea which makes us feel safe but really undermines everything we think).

I rewrote this many times haha, leaving it now lol I hope I added something useful

Hi Vanna, I detransitioned two years after SRS but I did so for the sake of my relationship with my children. Some have wondered if I should have gone ahead with SRS at all, but what's done is done.

I applaud your careful thought on your situation and I sense that whatever decision you make will be the right one for you. 

Take care, Kim

I don't see how anyone could go as far as you, with professional guidance - and then be wrong about transition.  I think you are just afraid.  Don't make rash decisions.

Hi Vanna,

I saw your post on CL before it was flagged.
I went through a phase similar to the one you have gone through (rigid MtF to queer) and would love to talk about/discuss it if you like.

Vanna:

Guess what?

All these things you describe in your thread?  I think them too ... every one of them ... every day ... for well over a year now. 

Mind you, in 1.5 weeks, I'll be 1 year and 4 months on HRT and I'm still not fulltime.  Sure, I give this reason and that reason but in the end the REAL issues for me are the same as the REAL issues for you. 

Will I pass?  No!  Can I do a feminine voice?  No!  Can I act all girlie-girl-like?  No!

As a natural free spirit, all I can be is who I am. 

Does ANYBODY here on this site feel like you do?  Yeah, I do. 

Does ANYBODY here on this site relate to you?  Yeah, I do.

Does ANYBODY here on this site understood you?  Yeah, I do.

See?  You are NOT alone.  You have a peer who thinks and feels like you do.  Do you often feel that by fully transitioning you'll be exchange one set of problems for another set of problems equally intense but just different?  I do.  Know what, my insurance will cover SRS.  Will I ever have it?  Probably, when I'm ready to send in the paperwork like you describe, I'll blitz out in a similar way. 

The difference between you and me is:

*  You pass.  I do not.

*  You will stop HRT.  I will not.

*  You are pretty.  I am not. 

All we can do is all we can do, and it'll have to be enough.  Let's take the lives we have with the circumstances we are in and make the most  of them.

Hugs & Peace to You

   Lacey

Your thread makes LOTS of sense to me. 

I'm not a fan of the semantics running rampant. I don't want to discuss it, really, or argue with anyone. I just want someone to know that I really don't care for any title at all, I'm finally being me. Someone may see all of the bickering and freak out, as I did up until just two days ago. Love yourself.

Be. Do. Have. Love. <3

peace! --> /hippieness

Quote from: japple on April 03, 2011, 03:31:52 AM
Vanna,

You're not detransitioning, you're just escaping a notion of transition..the weight of the gender binary.  How much of your pain is body dysphoria and how much is the views of gender created by a patriarchal society.  You say that you are worried about what boys do and what girls do.  What is what you feel and what is what is abstractly created? Transsexual people can be incredibly sexist.

There is something about you that is so innate that makes you want to be female. That is something you are probably born with.  A difference in body and identity. What is all the other stuff? All that stuff is created by society.  You say that you might be a feminine boy, but is that possible?   

You said that your drs said you were stable but you're not.  You ran away and you hide.  You're not confident. You transitioned without being able to say you're trans.   Before jumping back and forth between girl and boy, try being what you are.  You're trans.  People will love you accept you for that.  You will be able to have genuine relationships when you don't feel like you're lying.  You're allowing yourself to be judged.  You're a product of the society you live in, but you're just not going to fit with society's gender binary.  Not as a stealth trans woman hiding, not as a feminine boy.  So find how you do fit with society.  Most of that is going to come with being really honest...then you'll know that people accept you for what you are.  People who date you will accept you.  Friends will accept you.

I have to agree with that post.

Quote from: Sophie on April 05, 2011, 03:33:14 PM
Just be you, love yourself please .  The 'T' word you use as a self-descriptor, it's not a way I'd ever describe myself, (other forms of the word absolutely Transwoman, transgendered.  But the word you're using has an association with emphasizing sex and making the person who bears that name a sexual object.  Please stop using that word it's the source of alot of your problems.
I think other people have covered ditching trying to live up to some perfection of womanhood, just the fact it's perfect makes it indefinable and never attainable by anyone.

*Big hug*, you're worth so much   Having a self-esteem issue concerning looks is hard I know, many would sympathize with us   It's when you cease to care so much that being a good person is what matters above all

I have those thoughts about detransitioning very rarely (but for a completely different reason). I've lived full-time since I turned 21 and have worked on a lot of issues related to my gender transition.

Quote from: Aeverine Zinn on April 06, 2011, 03:11:14 AM
I have those thoughts about detransitioning very rarely (but for a completely different reason). I've lived full-time since I turned 21 and have worked on a lot of issues related to my gender transition.

The notion of full-time as if that's something completely different, hah.  It's what is happening mentally that matters, that groundwork should be firmly in place without delusion.  I've always had the deep connection and empathy with similiar women to me, now I can stop being treated like a sex object lol.  Seriously the divide that was never there has fallen from my mind completely.  It was all in my head anyway.  We are all gender blind end of the day, to talk about full-time in looks is to talk about full interaction based on the mental readiness.  Get the mind sorted out before even going out there is my advice.

So I'm preparing physical transition to place myself into situations where I'm not prepared is foolish, but to wait forever is madness, but if you're prepared mentally things happen without conscious control, for me this is all happening naturally moving to the physical.

If someone has to force it or jump in then make sure it's not a major blind experiment, it should be I have to make this change because the other options are not options I have to jump in.

People thinking of detransitioning think there's other options, but in our heart we know who we are, and we bring that to light by reflecting on our own existence.

Quote from: C.J. on April 05, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
Sophie's right. I learned this from my women's studies classes. Ciswomen struggle with the EXACT same thing. "Womanhood" as an essence, as defined by our highly limited society, is limited to white, middle-class, straight, cis, able-bodied women.

It's NOT exactly the same thing. Born woman were raised woman and have stronger identities as WOMAN then most TS woman do... (at least when they are like I am). An "ugly" woman is an "ugly" woman... an ugly TS (as in not able to pass) is a MAN, its a HUGE difference.
Its not just female insecurity, people may and can question your identity ALWAYS, without you beeing able to do anything about it!!! And you ALWAYS have to tell the people you are intimate with.. if they did not see it right away.

So for many of us... being a woman is nothing more then a fairytale.
And our upbringing makes us fragile.... you question yourself constantly, you should not, but it just happens... people judge people... there is no way around that.... and most likely you will be judged by the way you look too.

less of a woman is still a woman and makes a huge difference from not a woman at all.

Transwoman are objectified too.

And most likely NOT as woman, but as MEN. Most TS lovers want a TS because they want them to be masculine in bed for them, they objectify them....their bodies... even more so then is done with woman.

Most men will not be seen or have anything to do with a TS woman, because their friends will think they are gay.

How many TS woman worldwide have to sell their bodies to make ends meet... and that is not because they are woman, it is because they are TS woman and therefor are unable to lead a normal life as woman in sociaty...

The ones that can were most likely succesfull as man anyway...before transition.

And you can't really know ... you perhaps recognise what I say from your own experience as a woman in sociaty but ultimately you are not one... and you are certainly not a M2F TS.

I could say be prepared to be judged now by your income and masculinity, but I better say... be prepared that woman like you because you understand them better then men do....

And besides... it's a natural fact that we are judged by our looks... wether we like it or not.

I hope Vanna is still reading this thread, but even if she isn't, it may help others. A professional colleague posted this on a list-server I subscribe to. He said it was from The Vortex by Esther and Jerry Hicks:

"A belief is only a thought that you keep thinking- and it is only the beliefs that you hold that keep you from the things that you want.  A belief is only a thought that you keep thinking.  And the only thing that keeps you from who-you-really-are and what you really want is a belief, which is only a thought that you keep thinking.  So if its a thought you keep thinking, and you're getting results you don't want, wouldn't it be prudent to begin to think a different thought?"

"Everything that you see that you call reality is just coagulated, coalesced, combined thought- a thought that somebody thought long enough."

Unfortunately, as easy as this is to say, it can be hard work examining our beliefs, but well worth the effort.