Quote from: Sarah7 on April 24, 2011, 11:28:50 AM
Apparently we no longer have to be dead to see the gender of our brains: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html.

Ooooeu that's cool!

In that case, do you think that brain scans will be required before someone is allowed to receive treatment for being trans anything?

Something about that possibility screams "thought police!" To me.

Yes and then there's that =/.  Also, you could sure see the concept of "true transsexual" being taken to a new level.  We'd have to be careful about how stuff like that is used.

It could be used for good though if handled right.

One of the major problems impeding understanding comes from the backlash against "binary gender" and the old feminist rhetoric "we are all the same".

There is good research and understanding out there and has been for a decade but it is "played close to the vest" because it isn't politically correct. Numerous studies and research show generalized gender specific behaviour right from birth and significantly different developmental time lines and paths between boys and girls.

There is actually a whole lot of support for the idea of "brain sex" but a great deal of pressure to downplay it.

Quote from: Jen on April 24, 2011, 11:25:40 AM
Gender and sex both describe outwardly perceptible aspects, sex just being something more specific.  The idea that they are separate things is not true, even though I hear that said a lot.  They are interweaved- you would not have gender if there were no sex.

I don't think that last part is completely true other than that one must always have a functioning brain and body to exist and sex just happens to come along with it. Gender binary only started because of  cultures that used sex as a means of gender identity. We have had many cultures in the past and some that still exist today that have several gender identities that don't really relate to sex at all. We have people who don't identify as any sort of gender and feel a disconnect with their sex. Heck, that's like saying gender identity is dependent on your eye colour or your hair or your nose shape. It doesn't make sense for your identity to be determined by your genitals, especially since genitals don't always subscribe to binary.

But hey, some of us have been doing this sort of identity for so long and we're fine with being binary identified. There's nothing wrong with being binary identified but we should acknowledge that identity surrounding how are genitals look and function is a very limiting view of identity and not the whole. It's just plain silly to think it is the only way.

Quote from: Jen on April 24, 2011, 11:25:40 AMThe words are so frustrating though.  One person may be offended by "transgendered" with the ed on the end, while another thinks "transgender" sounds silly.  One person doesn't think those words apply to them, while another, who's gone through a very similar experience and is in a very similar place, does.  Another person is okay with "trans woman" but hates "transwoman" without a space, while another is okay with both, and another hates both.  It's a veritable minefield.

However you choose to reclaim a word is your business. If you want to reclaim a slur then go ahead, it is your right. The point is more or less that if you suggest it is something that is done to you and can be taken away then it can be used as a weapon against you by bigots and next thing we know we get programs designed to cleanse of us our 'mental illness.' It's not really a question of who is offended by what words and reclamation. It's about what can shatter our credibility and further confuse people which in turn takes it from 'I'm offended' to 'this is offensive.'

Could you imagine how much worse racial tensions would be like if we still used the phrase 'half-caste' for people who were of mixed race? Great, now they'd be suggesting that the person isn't as 'pure.' A bigot would then argue that the term 'pure' simply just means they are not full-insert race here and it's completely innocent, but it's still racist! It doesn't matter how they try to sugar coat it, if you're not of mixed race then you don't have any business to tell anyone that the word is OK to use. The same goes for cisgender people and words used against us.

If you want to identify as 'transgendered' then go for it. As long as the person is transgender they have every right to call reclaim what was used against them but they should at least be aware of what they are saying and the implications when dealing with the cisgender crowd. I'm not so sure many people here were actually aware of how it really sounds.

Quote from: Northern JaneOne of the major problems impeding understanding comes from the backlash against "binary gender" and the old feminist rhetoric "we are all the same".

There is good research and understanding out there and has been for a decade but it is "played close to the vest" because it isn't politically correct. Numerous studies and research show generalized gender specific behaviour right from birth and significantly different developmental time lines and paths between boys and girls.

There is actually a whole lot of support for the idea of "brain sex" but a great deal of pressure to downplay it.

There are also studies that show that if you raise two children of different sex in an environment free of binary and give them the same expectations that there is virtually no differences, even in strength. The thing is in order to get an legitimate study you not only have to have a controlled study but you need to question every variable that may affect it and potentially sabotage it with contaminated evidence.

For example they just recently found out that maybe addiction might not have anything to do with substance at all or at the very least, very little to do with it. They were testing Meth addiction with mice in a small cage and the mouse would drink the contaminated water simply because it was there. Then they tried it with a bigger cage and couldn't even get the mice to drink from the contaminated bowl. They always went for the clean water.

All these tests that I have seen that shows a support of brain sex are done on children on playgrounds who are already subjected to society's view of gender roles and how the parents choose the raise them. Even as a baby you are subjected to these and you really have no choice because it's all you know and the parent and society are the ones that are essentially raising you. It's the clothes you wear, the TV you watch, the expectations put on you, how people react because of your sex, etc...

And yet we have other studies where the study is controlled and isolated from outside uses saying that there is no real difference. Which study are we to really believe in?

There is also a budding science that revolves neuroplasticity, and has proven that it does exist until the brain is dead... I am limited by my phone, but I have the study in a paper at home. I have also been told that the mature sexually dimorphic parts of the brain do in fact respond to hrt.

I have read an incidence of homosexuality being cured through regional stimulation, then theman went back some time later. In the end, I knew this all had something to do with the brain, but absolutely none of that mattered anymore. My research turned  up tons of evidence, but it was of no comfort to me at all. I could wait for them to perfect neuroplasticity related treatment, I could view this all as a mental or physical disease and be completely justified in transition, b but I was killing myself learning and trying to make sense of this instead of doing. Not knowing is what put me in the hospital. There is no answer to the trans question and everyone knows it. In the end, all anyone can try to do is live as they think they should.

I wish I knew this was a choice , I also wish I knew this wasn't.

@Lachlann, sex is a prerequisite for gender in the sense that if you imagined there were no man or woman and we were all the same, then there would be no such thing as gender.  Essentially I agree with everything you've said, although my thinking on the subject is coming from a different angle so I may not use the same lines of reason, etc.

For whatever it's worth (which isn't much) I personally claim no terms for myself.  I have no interest in reclaiming words either.  I would like to see them all burned.  I find all gender-related terms unusable because their meanings do not hold from person to person.  So many disagreements spring up on these forums because of that, where both sides vehemently argue the exact same thing, just using different words.  I find it all exhausting.

For myself, I simply identify as a woman.  I personally don't need any other word, qualifier or addendum to get at the heart of who I am.  If anybody wants to attach any additional terms to me, then as long as it isn't out of maliciousness, by all means they may feel free.

Quote from: Lachlann on April 24, 2011, 08:42:48 PMAll these tests that I have seen that shows a support of brain sex are done on children on playgrounds who are already subjected to society's view of gender roles and how the parents choose the raise them. Even as a baby you are subjected to these and you really have no choice because it's all you know and the parent and society are the ones that are essentially raising you. It's the clothes you wear, the TV you watch, the expectations put on you, how people react because of your sex, etc...

That is not true. One of the tests that comes to mind involved infants only hours old and indicated faces held the attention of female babies  longest while male babies were more fascinated by things that moved and the length of time a face held a female baby's attention was significantly longer than the time a mobile held a male baby's attention. If "social conditioning" is a factor within hours of birth than it really doesn't matter if it is "social conditioning" or "brain sex" because the result is the same because it is fixed and immutable so early in life.

Quote from: JessicaR on April 22, 2011, 09:59:21 PM
 

   The subject at hand is asking if the originally posted definition is true or false. It invites opinion. If my having an opinion violates the TOS, you go right ahead and kick me out.

  I'm done with this thread...

   Don't ask me my opinion and smite me for it after...

Hey- this is the original poster verifying that I was definitely asking for people's opinions, so you're correct.  No one should be smiting anyone.  Thank you for participating in the insanity

Quote from: RabbitsOfTheWorldUnite on April 03, 2011, 02:27:55 AM
I'll just say TRUE because no one else has said it yet and I like to be different!

And actually.... if over half the world population believes something to be true, doesn't that justifiably make it true? ;-)

"Dear Confused, we think that reality is what everyone agrees is real. What everyone agrees is not real, doesn't exist." (The Android Sisters)

Quote from: Juliet on April 02, 2011, 01:18:04 AM
TRUE or FALSE?

A Transgendered Individual is:
Either a male who identifies as a woman or a female who identifies as a man.

(Feel free to explain your answer)

This is all types of wrong haha.

A woman who identifies in some way as a man or vice a versa is transgendered, but they are primarily the gender they say they are, the transgendering is the "in some way" part.

As a transsexual woman I'm detransitioning to what I really always was.  I was never male I have male characteristics, and actually am far more of a man than many men   But I'm not a male who identifies as a woman.  I construct my gender identity, but always from what makes me.  I'm currently transgendered in that I'm in a male styled body, once I correct things to my satisfaction HRT, srs, clothings, laser, hair I will no longer be transgendered in the strong sense, it will still be part of my past which I will acknowledge and help others to the best of my ability.  Male characteristics that are an essential part of me will be make me transgendered like all the other people on the planet.

I would just like to say that this entire thread is exactly the reason I, and I suspect many other transgender people, simply choose to stay entirely away from the 'transgender community' or any sort of trans related activism, and live our lives simply as the gender we identify as without the absurd degree of overthinking and semantic crap more politically inclined members seem to get upset over.

I identify as female, I don't allow people to know anything contrary to that, and thus I am accepted as I want to be. It's easy, it's simple, and leaves so much more time to worry about real life concerns without wasting time being so 'open minded' that there's no actual substance left.

The only reason I bother to post this, is I think it's a shame people waste so much time on these issues rather than more tangible problems that affect the transgender minority.

To answer the original post and give my reply a little bit of legitimacy of being somewhat on topic...

The answer is, neither. There is no answer to the question because the question doesn't carry enough information to form a conclusive answer.

Before you can say what a word means, you have to decide an authority which has the power to definitions.

Most sane people in the real world would simply use a dictionary as the authority, but technically speaking you could then argue which dictionary is the 'right' dictionary.

Then there's the issue that english is an evolving language and that dictionaries change all the time based on the new words that come into existence and evolving uses of existing words, making previous uses of the words that were at the time supposedly 'false', suddenly 'true'.

Which itself brings up the validity of predominant opinion, is the predominant opinion of a word the 'true' definition?

Getting back to my original point, the 'true' definition of the word transgender depends on whom you ask.

These sort of philosophical semantic kinda arguments are utterly pointless though, the point of language is to convey information, as long as the information is conveyed accurately, why does it even matter how it's accomplished? Just be clear and quit worrying so much about definitions.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 11, 2011, 05:15:33 AM
Most sane people in the real world would simply use a dictionary as the authority, but technically speaking you could then argue which dictionary is the 'right' dictionary.

Then there's the issue that english is an evolving language and that dictionaries change all the time based on the new words that come into existence and evolving uses of existing words, making previous uses of the words that were at the time supposedly 'false', suddenly 'true'.

Which itself brings up the validity of predominant opinion, is the predominant opinion of a word the 'true' definition?

Predominant opinion DOES NOT decide how a word is supposedily defined, that is supposedily decided by elites, academics, politicians, medical practioners and psychiarists and psychologists, heirarchy needs to have control.

QuoteGetting back to my original point, the 'true' definition of the word transgender depends on whom you ask.

But their control is not complete for a number of reasons differing from individual to individual.
Fighting for self determination I am as political as they come, I have every right to explore the meaning of words and I respect anyone else who wishes to do so for themselves.

QuoteI identify as female, I don't allow people to know anything contrary to that, and thus I am accepted as I want to be. It's easy, it's simple, and leaves so much more time to worry about real life concerns without wasting time being so 'open minded' that there's no actual substance left.

You're a mass of contradictions.

QuoteThese sort of philosophical semantic kinda arguments are utterly pointless though, the point of language is to convey information, as long as the information is conveyed accurately, why does it even matter how it's accomplished? Just be clear and quit worrying so much about definitions.

It's semantics to you, you're happy good for you.  Exploration of definitions in a willing to learn sense of the word for me and me alone.