My best friend is pre-everything and just started getting referrals to various doctors to start transitioning asap. She came out only a few months back and it's really hard on her (she's really struggling to save up money for top surgery too - Canadian health care doesn't reach that far yet :S ). She dresses in all guy's clothes, has a guy's haircut and does her best to pass. Unfortunately she has a feminine face and can't throw her voice, so once people see her face up close or hear her speak her cover's usually blown.
I was out with her yesterday and we went in a small supermarket with an Asia woman behind the counter. Out of nowhere the clerk asked my friend "you a boy? or you a lady?" My friend answered "No, I'm a boy". The clerk then pointed at my friend and said "No, you a lady!".
Needless to say that my friend lost it once we ran out of the store. It was heartbreaking to see her cry so hard.
I know the store clerk was very rude and inappropriate, and I also know this was just the first of much public humiliation still to come for her (later that night she got attacked out of the blue by a flamboyant gay dude for being a "stupid butch lesbian". Thank god he didn't know she was trans, he would not have survived that night if he had slurred her dysphoria).
If it keeps on going at this rate I need some advice on how to help her out the next time it happens. I didn't really know what to say except agree that the store clerk was a rude ->-bleeped-<-, but is there anything else you guys can think of that helps/helped you get through those situations? What other awkward or humiliating public interactions can she expect to happen, and how can I make it easier for her to get through this time until she's a guy?

If your friend identifies as trans and is attempting to present as the guy HE is, here are a few things you can start doing:

(1) realize your friend is ALREADY a guy, feminine face and voice notwithstanding;

(2) use male pronouns for your friends (he, him, etc.);

(3) use these pronouns in public in front of other people and verify that he is a boy in public in response to "are you a boy or a girl?", rather than leaving your friend to have to insist on his manhood or use his (girly sounding) voice more.

Obviously, you can't make the rest of society view your friend correctly, but you'd be surprised at how much it can help guys out when the people closest to them DO validate their gender identity and DO use correct names, pronouns, etc.

Otherwise, just be a good friend. Listen. Talk. Hang out. Have fun together. Learn more about trans stuff together.

Some things (I guess) are the same/similar issues with FtM as with MtF.

Obviously your friend is young and insecure (as we all are when we start off) even when at a much older (riper, OMG) age.

We take a while to get some chutzpah and simply sticking it out is one thing, but for you guys to get "T" would make some difference, and then some. Think voice, muscle, facial hair and so on.

It is known that in this department you guy can actually do a lot better then we MtFs. I've seen it, no question.

Next if you have noticeable breast your cover be blown, none oft the above will help much.

What can you do as a friend? Keep your cool when stuff like that happens and DON'T ever get into argument. Just smile at the idjet and keep your calm.

My ten cents worth, :-
Axelle

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about how things are going with your friend. That sounds awful. Even when I was passing less, I very rarely if ever had people single me out like that. If your friend would be comfortable doing so, there's a "Do I pass?" thread on our board here where he could post a pic of himself and get passing tips. I know what you're saying about voice, though. Even when you look very masculine it can completely give you away. There's some videos on youtube with voice exercises to 'boom' your voice, temporarily making it lower. It definitely works and can give you that extra boost of confidence in social situations, though unfortunately it's only temporary.

Oh, another thing... does he bind? That also makes a huge difference socially and can help passing. I'd recommend against Ace bandages and go with one of the well-known companies like Underworks or Les Love Boat. I have one from LLB and it's changed my life, really.

Hopefully he can get on T asap and start physically transitioning. In the meantime, just keep supporting him through these incidents and use male pronouns with him if he prefers it. I saw you use 'she' in your post... even though that's what others are saying, go by what he wants and chances are that's male pronouns. I know that definitely eased those public blows for me when my gf would use male pronouns and encourage other people to as well. Good luck to you and your friend, man. It's rough out there but it does get better.

Quote from: lexical on May 28, 2011, 10:20:13 AM

Hopefully he can get on T asap and start physically transitioning. In the meantime, just keep supporting him through these incidents and use male pronouns with him if he prefers it. I saw you use 'she' in your post... even though that's what others are saying, go by what he wants and chances are that's male pronouns. I know that definitely eased those public blows for me when my gf would use male pronouns and encourage other people to as well. Good luck to you and your friend, man. It's rough out there but it does get better.

I am going to disagree wtih this 100%. To the OP, support your friend in exploring his identity - how he presents in public, talking, writing, seeing a therapist who specializes in gender therapy (which can help him develop coping mechanisms for dealing with dysphoria or public "outings"). But also encourage him to transition at the speed he is ready to transition. Do NOT push or encourage your friend to take T, get surgery or otherwise medically transition. Support him if and when he seeks these things on his own.

While many people posting here either are taking T and moving toward physical/medical transition or wish to do so in the future, I think it is irresponsible to suggest that someone you don't know anything about should be encouraged to take these permanent steps as quickly as possible. Transition is not a race, and taking hormones is not a cure-all, and it should not be presented as such to anyone, least of all someone you know very little about.

Quote from: Sean on May 28, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
I am going to disagree wtih this 100%. To the OP, support your friend in exploring his identity - how he presents in public, talking, writing, seeing a therapist who specializes in gender therapy (which can help him develop coping mechanisms for dealing with dysphoria or public "outings"). But also encourage him to transition at the speed he is ready to transition. Do NOT push or encourage your friend to take T, get surgery or otherwise medically transition. Support him if and when he seeks these things on his own.

While many people posting here either are taking T and moving toward physical/medical transition or wish to do so in the future, I think it is irresponsible to suggest that someone you don't know anything about should be encouraged to take these permanent steps as quickly as possible. Transition is not a race, and taking hormones is not a cure-all, and it should not be presented as such to anyone, least of all someone you know very little about.

I understand what you're saying, Sean... and I don't think it's a race by any means to start transitioning. And we don't know that he isn't in gender therapy already. It just sounded to me from the original post that his friend has made his decision and is suffering in the meantime as people don't recognize his maleness. I mean, he did say that he is "getting referrals to various doctors to start transitioning asap." But I agree, these decisions should only be made after much thought, consideration, and research.

I agree with everything Sean said.

Quote from: Kohdy on May 28, 2011, 03:02:23 PM
I agree with Sean 100%, and to the OP, you used incorrect pronouns for your friend several times in the post, so do your friend a favor and use the correct pronouns, regardless of the audience you are talking to. If I had a nickel every time my closest family and friends used the wrong pronouns and outed me in public, I'd be a millionaire.  It's hurtful to the individual and can cause a lot of confusion and harm from others, especially in public situations.

this.  it meant so much to me when my best friend finally started using male pronouns.  for a while he kept explaining me to other people by saying stuff like "she's a boy, just treat her like a man." if i am a man, then why would anyone refer to me as she?  lately, he's been asking me how i'd like to be described, so now he's saying "he's a man with a female body," if they don't understand what ftm transsexual means.  of course, that's only in situations where i WANT him to out me.  otherwise, he just says he's a guy, and defends me if someone tries to say otherwise.  one thing i really like is when other people are obviously confused about my gender, he'll start up a conversation where he can refer to me as a guy, or use my male name.  that tends to alleviate some of the confusion.  of course, this is simply what i prefer.  ask your friend what he wants, and just continue to be supportive. 

it sounds like you're a great friend though. please don't take all the corrections as an attack on you   it's confusing at first if you've never known a trans person.

Quote from: Axelle on May 28, 2011, 10:19:13 AM
Obviously your friend is young and insecure (as we all are when we start off) even when at a much older (riper, OMG) age.

We take a while to get some chutzpah and simply sticking it out is one thing,
...
Next if you have noticeable breast your cover be blown, none oft the above will help much.
...
What can you do as a friend? Keep your cool when stuff like that happens and DON'T ever get into argument. Just smile at the idjet and keep your calm.

this too.  when i first came out, i had very little confidence.  one time i was at a waffle house, and the waitress kept calling me ma'am, despite my men's hair cut and clothes.  she said it with a snide smile too, so i was sure she was trying to humiliate me.  i ended up being afraid to really look her in the eye and defend myself, so i just left after a cup of coffee.  now, if that happened, i'd calmly, yet confidently, correct her, and if that didn't work i'd be having a chat with her supervisor, and if that didn't work, i'd contact the someone higher up at waffle house until i got an apology, and she (and the supervisor) were reprimanded. confidence will come, it just takes some time and practice.  i'm sorry that happened to him though    it DOES get better. 

edit: oh yeah, and if he doesn't bind, i'd recommend looking into that.  breasts are a total give away.  but binders are uncomfortable and they can hurt you if you're not careful about it.  it's his decision- just an fyi    underworks and les love boat make great binders- personally, i prefer love boat.  there's a binder comparison thread around here somewhere that may be helpful too. 

Quote from: Sean on May 28, 2011, 10:07:20 AM
If your friend identifies as trans and is attempting to present as the guy HE is, here are a few things you can start doing:

(1) realize your friend is ALREADY a guy, feminine face and voice notwithstanding;

(2) use male pronouns for your friends (he, him, etc.);

(3) use these pronouns in public in front of other people and verify that he is a boy in public in response to "are you a boy or a girl?", rather than leaving your friend to have to insist on his manhood or use his (girly sounding) voice more.

Obviously, you can't make the rest of society view your friend correctly, but you'd be surprised at how much it can help guys out when the people closest to them DO validate their gender identity and DO use correct names, pronouns, etc.

Otherwise, just be a good friend. Listen. Talk. Hang out. Have fun together. Learn more about trans stuff together.

Uh..I guess I should have clarified: my friend does not want to use the male pronoun yet. She has her reasons but insists on - in everyday life and when I talk about her with other people - to use the female pronoun and I respect her choice. I've asked her and offered to use 'he' when she came out to my as the first person.

The way the situation happened she had to respond to the clerk before I knew what was going on, and the damage was done before I could help it. I was asking on if you guys knew any cognitive coping strategies I could help her with, or cognitive ways she can prepare herself for future insults

Quote from: lexical on May 28, 2011, 10:20:13 AM
Wow, I'm sorry to hear about how things are going with your friend. That sounds awful. Even when I was passing less, I very rarely if ever had people single me out like that. If your friend would be comfortable doing so, there's a "Do I pass?" thread on our board here where he could post a pic of himself and get passing tips. I know what you're saying about voice, though. Even when you look very masculine it can completely give you away. There's some videos on youtube with voice exercises to 'boom' your voice, temporarily making it lower. It definitely works and can give you that extra boost of confidence in social situations, though unfortunately it's only temporary.

Oh, another thing... does he bind? That also makes a huge difference socially and can help passing. I'd recommend against Ace bandages and go with one of the well-known companies like Underworks or Les Love Boat. I have one from LLB and it's changed my life, really.

Hopefully he can get on T asap and start physically transitioning. In the meantime, just keep supporting him through these incidents and use male pronouns with him if he prefers it. I saw you use 'she' in your post... even though that's what others are saying, go by what he wants and chances are that's male pronouns. I know that definitely eased those public blows for me when my gf would use male pronouns and encourage other people to as well. Good luck to you and your friend, man. It's rough out there but it does get better.

thank you for your response. As for the pronouns I go by what she wants me to use, and currently it's still 'she'. We talk a lot about when that will change, and I respect which pronoun she wants to use. She uses 'she' mainly because it would be very confusing in public interactions, so even though in my head I more and more use 'he', I make an effort to publicly use 'she'. Though, for the sake of argument, it doesn't matter what pronoun we use on this forum.
She is lucky enough to not need binding (B cup), and manages to hide them mostly under baggier shirts. I will show her the youtube videos on booming your voice, I'm sure she will try that out

Quote from: Sean on May 28, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
I am going to disagree wtih this 100%. To the OP, support your friend in exploring his identity - how he presents in public, talking, writing, seeing a therapist who specializes in gender therapy (which can help him develop coping mechanisms for dealing with dysphoria or public "outings"). But also encourage him to transition at the speed he is ready to transition. Do NOT push or encourage your friend to take T, get surgery or otherwise medically transition. Support him if and when he seeks these things on his own.

While many people posting here either are taking T and moving toward physical/medical transition or wish to do so in the future, I think it is irresponsible to suggest that someone you don't know anything about should be encouraged to take these permanent steps as quickly as possible. Transition is not a race, and taking hormones is not a cure-all, and it should not be presented as such to anyone, least of all someone you know very little about.

Thanks! I've been aware of that and always try and be very careful to gauge what is best for her and make her happiest. I don't push her into T and mentioned to never take my support for 'pushing her into anything'. She acknowledges that there's always a small chance that she will not go through with it, and from time to time I bring it up or try to see if that doubt is still there. At this point I have no doubt anymore that she will get a sex change, she is willing to do almost anything (yes, that kind of anything too ) to be able to get T and afford the surgery. It's amazing to see her willpower and strength in reaching that goal, and I can't wait for her to get there, it will be so cool to see her be comfortable in her own body.

Quote from: Sean on May 28, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
I am going to disagree wtih this 100%. To the OP, support your friend in exploring his identity - how he presents in public, talking, writing, seeing a therapist who specializes in gender therapy (which can help him develop coping mechanisms for dealing with dysphoria or public "outings"). But also encourage him to transition at the speed he is ready to transition. Do NOT push or encourage your friend to take T, get surgery or otherwise medically transition. Support him if and when he seeks these things on his own.

While many people posting here either are taking T and moving toward physical/medical transition or wish to do so in the future, I think it is irresponsible to suggest that someone you don't know anything about should be encouraged to take these permanent steps as quickly as possible. Transition is not a race, and taking hormones is not a cure-all, and it should not be presented as such to anyone, least of all someone you know very little about.

This and I just want to mention something about T and that is that not all trans men feel the need to take T.  I have a friend who doesn't plan to take T but still lives his life as the man he is (you'd never suspect he wasn't born male)

Quote from: brockstudent23 on May 29, 2011, 12:49:48 AM
(yes, that kind of anything too ) t.

What are you trying to imply here? 

I think it's presumptuous of anyone to tell someone to use male pronouns for a friend when we don't even know what the friend wants. We should always ask if the friend prefers male pronouns. The original poster's friend is a nice case in point.

So is my friend. I know a pre-transition trans man who prefers that we all use his female name and pronouns everywhere in public. Privately, one guy refers to him with female name and pronouns almost all the time, and I use the male/female name (such as Jim/Jane) and male pronouns all the time. The pre-transition friend is fine with both of us. But if we go out for pizza, I avoid names and pronouns altogether. If I must, I will call him Jane and use female pronouns.

And I don't think it's wrong for some of us to hope that a person can start T as soon as possible if we know that T is part of the plan. Such a response is not telling the original poster to push the friend into starting T before she is ready. It's just an expression of a hope.

Back to business...Brockstudent, your friend is probably going to run into such rudeness quite a lot if she doesn't "pass" well. I can't offer much advice, unfortunately. But one thing my therapist tells me might be helpful. I was telling him about a GYN visit...well, it was pretty humiliating...and I told him that I was thinking, "I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl." And he said, "You could also think something more positive, like 'I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy.'" I don't know if that helps.

Your friend can also console herself by taking a deep breath and telling herself that the rude person just doesn't know any better. (And say inwardly, "I'm a boy.")

I'm not too sure if there is a way of helping your friend overcome the social stigma that we get hit by, beyond being what you are, a friend. After a while most of us find a way with dealing with stuff. I have to admit I used to be so nervous at not passing, I wouldn't go out. I am fully aware that I don't pass but I really don't care anymore. Having developed that attitude has in fact allowed me to pass. Because I don't care what others think or say, no one seems to treat me as anything but female. Is it the confidence thing? I don't know, my voice doesn't pass at all. I out myself every time I speak and I no longer care.  Two cases from this weekend. Saturday night I went out to my local hotel restaurant, again I seem to have gone there every Saturday for the last 4-5 weeks.  The manager saw me and said, 'Hi Cindy you can have Table 4.' Others were still queuing.  I saw a man who I know as an acquaintance only, I also know he lost his wife recently. He was looking a bit upset and watching the football on one of the TVs. So I walked over and just said, Is your team winning? His face lit up and we had a little chat.

I went shopping today in boy mode, complicated reasons. I wandered into several shops looking at stuff and in every one the assistants said if you want to try anything the change rooms are   blah blah .  So I fail to pass as a guy, I also fail to pass as a girl, but people don't seem to care because of my confidence.

So to cut a long ramble down, help build up your friends confidence. Tell her (I note your comment about pronouns and of course respect it) to be calm, to not react, to not give a damn.  Tell her to get to the point in life where, if some one asks are you a boy or a girl to say yes. To be able to look at someone and say, 'what are you?' To be confident no matter how she is treated. Respect comes from within, not from others.

Sorry if this is too long

Cindy

All I can suggest is, in answer to the counter-hopper , "a customer who is going to take their money elsewhere!"

Cindy,
so very smart chick. Just has put it all in a nut-shell not more needed to add.
I have experienced it from first time not be able to enter a girl change-room to just being the part, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
No replacement for simple self-confidence. The way it just is, what more to say. Get practice. It will come with time.
Axelle

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 29, 2011, 12:51:58 AM
What are you trying to imply here?

Prostitution. It's incredibly hard on her, the more she is starting to identify as a man. She's essentially crossdressing and have guys completely treat her as a woman, and she hates it. I hope she can get out of it as soon as possible, I'm thinking about ways of offering to pay for part of the surgery (however much I can afford to give) in a way that she will accept it.

Quote from: Arch on May 29, 2011, 12:56:30 AM
I think it's presumptuous of anyone to tell someone to use male pronouns for a friend when we don't even know what the friend wants. We should always ask if the friend prefers male pronouns. The original poster's friend is a nice case in point.

So is my friend. I know a pre-transition trans man who prefers that we all use his female name and pronouns everywhere in public. Privately, one guy refers to him with female name and pronouns almost all the time, and I use the male/female name (such as Jim/Jane) and male pronouns all the time. The pre-transition friend is fine with both of us. But if we go out for pizza, I avoid names and pronouns altogether. If I must, I will call him Jane and use female pronouns.

And I don't think it's wrong for some of us to hope that a person can start T as soon as possible if we know that T is part of the plan. Such a response is not telling the original poster to push the friend into starting T before she is ready. It's just an expression of a hope.

Back to business...Brockstudent, your friend is probably going to run into such rudeness quite a lot if she doesn't "pass" well. I can't offer much advice, unfortunately. But one thing my therapist tells me might be helpful. I was telling him about a GYN visit...well, it was pretty humiliating...and I told him that I was thinking, "I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl." And he said, "You could also think something more positive, like 'I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy.'" I don't know if that helps.

Your friend can also console herself by taking a deep breath and telling herself that the rude person just doesn't know any better. (And say inwardly, "I'm a boy.")

I agree with absolutely everything you said, especially the bit about people being presumptuous. To the people who said I should use the male pronoun: I know you had the best intentions at heart but does it really look like I don't acknowledge my friend's gender?

The 'I'm a boy' thing is a good bit of advice, I'll pass that on to my friend. She does often think "I'm not a girl!", so switching that thought for a more positive one might help to not constantly emphasize the negative aspect, instead looking at it from a much more positive angle.

thanks Cindy, your post gives me hope that my friend will at some point reach the ...point you are at. It's incredible how much confidence you have and how happy you seem because of that.

It doesn't help that my friend has a whole bunch of mood disorders lol (medicated, but still struggling) which make everything sooo much harder. I'll do my best to help her through this difficult step in her life, you are a great role model for all trans people Cindy!