Kia Ora,

All some of us[well the vast majority of us I would think] want from society is to be recognised, as our affirmed gender with or without surgery, and in most cases this "affirmed gender"would be either male or female-opposite to ones birth sex..."Transitioning"...

But what of those who sit on the gender fence, where do they stand? Those who stay in the transit lounge so to speak...

This question is for those queer folk who don't identify as male nor female or who identify as both ... What sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?
BTW by queer folk I mean = Beyond or deviating from the usual or expected

Metta Zenda

I love your subject line, and I'm looking forward to seeing the responses. I'm male all the way, but I love reading about the folks who don't identify in such a binary way.

Kia Ora Arch,

I find it fascinating, I was blown away when I first came across people who saw themselves as either genderless or androgynous...Society will often label people as they see fit...If one looks like an X they will normally call one X...
However as all M2F & F2M "transitioners" know, correct pronouns are very important and these pronouns don't differ from the "norm"...

Metta Zenda

Well, I don't see it as a transit lounge between places or a fence between two gardens or a place to be stuck. To see at as this dry, arid, inbetweeny place between the two poles of gender is to not understand, and to undermine the androgyne experience.


It's an open journey of self discovery over rocky terrain, shady bowers and tinkling streams. Although I'd like recognition from big, airless corporations and governments and such, all I am looking for is self-recognition, the feeling of integrity and authenticity - and if those around me can spot that too, all the better.

In my imagination, there's no transit lounge - the space between the little towns of Male and Female is more like the Amazon basin . Everywhere is a worthwhile destination.

I'm not really in a transit lounge, for me it's more like riding a pendulum across the divide - I feel more masculine some days, others I want to be able to express my feminine side more, although I'd much rather do that with a male body - didn't work with a female one

It's taken me a long time to get to this place, where I can know what I am; accept that while my body's male, I don't really ID as such in the usual, binary sense, and as long as I get to be me in peace, that's all I really ask. I've wasted too much of my time worrying about the perception of others - it'd be nice if it wasn't so complicated trying to explain to others, but until society stops thinking in binary we're SOL on that one.

I LOVE the replies you've gotten so far-- poetry! The imagery is wonderful.

I do love the subject line but no transit lounge for me either. Not even any shapeshifting. I yam what I yam.

I'm female bodied but not too obviously so. I get Sir'd a lot and that's fine. I get Ma'am'd sometimes and that's fine. I get a lot of Uhh's, and that's fine too. I wish we had commonly used gender neutral pronouns and titles to remove some of people's discomfort but I like being in the gray zone; it's who I am.

I really confuse people with my half top job. Doc wouldn't take the second breast off when I had my mastectomy and I'm not doing any more surgery, so I'm lopsided and in my own little gray zone there too.

Kia Ora, and thanks for all your responses so far.....

I guess from a Buddhist perspective [on a somewhat deeper level mind you] for some gender diverse people when it comes to "gender identity", their philosophy it would seem is....
"Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !"  "Nothing Whatsoever Should be Clung To!"

I remember when I was in the androgynous stage of my transition,[I lived there for around 16/18 months on HRT and dressed in male mode-be it somewhat unisexed] and like some of you have already mentioned, at times it could be most entertaining...    

I'd go into a big department store and the following often happened...[even with my children tagging along-who didn't know of my HRT and gradual metamorphosis], But they seemed to get a real kick out of it though...

The first store assistant  "Can I help you sir?" then a while later another assistant[same store] "Can I help you ma'am ?" ...On leaving the store at the check out, the check out assistant "Thank you have a nice day "sir"!" to the first customer..."Have a nice day "Ma'am" !" to the second and when it's my turn "Have a nice day "?" !"...Nothing but a blank smile!

Some people were just to embarrassed to use pronouns for fear of offending me...So in a sense from the cisgender view point, androgynous looking  people can be a real pain in the arrrrrrrrrrsssseee ....and cause for much confusion  and possibly stress especially when it comes to correct pronouns...   

However it was when I had to use the public toilets/restrooms now that was a real eye opener...........

  "The wonderful wacky world of androgyny...Ah... those were the days!" 

Metta Zenda

I want to be accepted as female without undergoing any surgery.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 04, 2011, 04:47:01 PM
I want to be accepted as female without undergoing any surgery.

I like the TS credo: I am what I say I am.

A point that I might like to draw your attention to when speaking with us fine androgens as a "community"...while you may has gone though "an androgynous appearance" as you crossed from male to female...this is not the same as having an androgyn (or other non binary) identity. There are some of us that might bristle at the suggestion that they are the same.
Many of us here don't "pass" as androgyn and may not have any desire to illicit the "ummmmm" (what are you) reaction in people.
I wish that I lived in a society that accepted me as a valid gender. There are such societies (though almost all are tribal and "old world")
Asking "if the world is ready for me" though? Really? I'm going to try really really hard to take that from a perspective of trying to understand non-binaries but...I mean...I guess I don't know what to do with that question.
Lastly...I do often joke that I sit on the fence in almost all aspects of my life...and I do often describe myself as "being between male and female" because it's quick and easy and gets the point across...but that's not the whole of it. Not by a long shot!
To understand the androgyn identity is the same process as understanding any other identity. Read how they talk to eachother first, learn the "lingo" then ask some questions to find clarity. 

QuoteWhat sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?

I was going to walk away from this but I can't....

Would you ask any person of any other minority this question?

Zenda,
You are so sweet and you try so very hard to be nice all the time, I am loathe to bring this up with you but perhaps you droped the ball on this one.

OMG WTF?

Kia Ora Sevan,

Your contribution is most welcomed...I'm fully aware that what M2Fs & F2Ms go through in regards to the "androgynous" stage of  "transition" is not the same as living/ seeing oneself as a "androgyn" full time...

"And what recognition if any do you want ?" A simple enough question...When in public what would you prefer to be known as ?  "Sir"  "Ma'am"  "Sie" "Hir" etc....And do you think society at large will even come to the party ?

There are people in society at present who see themselves as males and females, but they are naturally "androgynous" and I guess could take offence if they were to be addressed as "Sie" or "Hir" ...Or if the incorrect binary pronoun is used...One size [so it would seems] does not fit all...

Abe Lincoln once said in his Gettysburg speech  [Well I think it was old Abe]

"You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time!"

Metta Zenda

Kia Ora Cynthia,

  Again the topic itself is not controversial however some  "people" might choose to make it so...I can't force them see the "light" that is the error of their ways...

I just hope this is not the case...And that we can just share opinions without fear of  "personal attacks"...But I won't hold my breath......

Or perhaps it's just "me" and that I bring out the worst in others    ...Oh well S...hit happens! 

Metta Zenda

Ok...simple question. True enough. It is a simple question.
Let me then ask you a simple question.
Do you think society will accept transsexual MtFs and FtMs?

What does that even matter? Your here. You exist. You have the right to exist regardless what anyone else might say.

I don't think Cynthia was saying anything inappropriate at all. It's one of those questions that...is something that is often asked (by my parents...even.) when one is uncomfortable. "Do you think society is ready for gays and lesbians to get married?" Um...what should that matter.

I read an article recently that was written by a mother and she was talking about how they've chosen to raise their children with some awareness. Their "father" is transgender (the article didn't specify in what manner..) and so they've raised the children to ask people who come into the home (polietly) what the person identifies as. It was as simple as "Hi, how are you?" to this child.

Would I LOVE it if the whole world worked that way? That strikes me as a silly question. Um...yes! Yes I would like that very much.

Do I see that happening? No. Does that make me sad everytime someone ignores who I say I am? Sometimes even after I've expressed myself verbally about who I am, how I'd like to be address? Yes. That hurts very much. Have I grown thicker skin to it even though I shouldn't really have had to? Yes.

My personal pronoun desired? They're under my picture for reference.

Seems I have once again struck a nerve with a few simple lines.

Perhaps if you were to divorce what was said from who said it then what I said might have more weight.

Kia Ora Sevan,

A good question...I would guess, this would depend on whether or not the said individual greatly challenges society's concept of gender...For the most part in many "progressive" Western countries/societies, transsexual people are granted legal recognition, this would indicate society in general in those countries "accepts" transsexual people...

But there are and no doubt always will be pockets of society who refuse to come to the party...

Sadly at times when anger arises it tend to rage blindly with no specific target to attack, everyone or thing is fair game...I'm not the enemy of androgyn  people... Just someone whose interested in their plight ...

Metta Zenda

Kia Ora Cynthia,

Simple answer to your first post is YES...why not? I can't see anything wrong with asking "harmless" questions...

But I'm at a lose how one could read  "controversy" into such  "harmless" questions...And I'm "not" directing this at you personally but it's just that you did bring this up...So why do you think this Cynthia ? Why would some find this offensive and take it personally ? 

Metta Zenda

Cynthia made a good point, it's not the question itself, it's the assumptions that are going with it.

Quote from: Zenda on June 04, 2011, 11:29:08 PM
this would depend on whether or not the said individual greatly challenges society's concept of gender... Just someone whose interested in their plight ...

I for one am not trying to challenge society's concepts of gender, I am just trying to live as honestly and authentically as I can. If that living happens to challenge society, then fine, but they can get on with being challenged by themselves without me. Many androgynes seem more Mr Rogers than Ziggy Stardust. Indeed Mr Roger's quote "One of the greatest gifts you can give anybody is the gift of your honest self" is an integral part of my androgyne plight.

As for pronouns, they really don't bother me. There are commonly three sets of pronouns he/she/they, which don't fit me. The neutral ones are not all that euphonious to my ears so I don't use them. I've come to the conclusion that if they are using a pronoun about me, then it is by definition gender neutral, whether they know it or not. Of course this...

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 05, 2011, 01:40:28 AM
This is what I offer those who don't "fit" a sir or ma'am intro...

"Hi, my name is (Beth)...what's yours? (or, "...and you are...?")"

... is the best answer, and that is my last point about the androgyne plight.

If you are honest and clear with yourself about who you are, people will refer and think of you as an androgyne whether they have heard of the word/concept before or not. I've actually had more friends tell me that i am not a boy but not a girl, then I've told them.

If there is offence caused, it's not because of the question, it's because of being viewed like exotica.

Quote from: Zenda on June 03, 2011, 11:42:44 PM
What sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?

I just want to say that I don't think that there's anything wrong with these questions.  I think they are valid and come from a desire to understand.  Yeah, you wouldn't ask a person who's an ethnic minority that (probably anyway), but I don't think that people of various ethnic backgrounds have a hard time understanding why someone else looks different (generally speaking).  Gender identity is a whole other beast, so I just think that it's better to answer questions honestly than to take issue with the questions themselves (unless the questions are truly offensive, which these really aren't).

Anywho...

As far as recognition goes, I think for me it's more that I want people to let go of things like girl=pink/boy=blue type thinking.  Male/Female/otherwise makes no difference in ability, in style, etc.  Gender shouldn't be limiting.  It shouldn't even be a factor.

As for the second, I think that when people are faced with something different, they are either curious or they fight against it with all their might.  So I think that some people are perfectly fine with openly transgender people, whether said people are binary or not, and some aren't.  That's a "know your area" situation.  It's about appropriate levels of caution.  I live in a liberal city where nobody cares what you are.  However, said city is in a very conservative state (I mean, we have a creationist museum and they want to build a life size "ark" for god's sake).  I would be perfectly comfortable identifying as trans in my city, but there are places in my state where I would absolutely keep that information to myself.  On a side note, I don't think that the US is as conservative as certain media try to convince us we are...by that I mean I think some people are convinced that they should be conservative when by their own nature, they probably aren't.  I have a cousin who's gay (and they all know, even if they don't talk about it), for example, and while his family won't watch Ellen (Degeneris) because she's a lesbian and they've been told that "the gays" are hell-bound, they would NEVER disown him.  Never.  They'd bite their own tongues off before they did that.  I don't know how well that answers your question, but it's 6 AM and I haven't gone to bed yet. 

Zenda,
Why did I think your question might be offensive to others?

Because it was. I got to hear it from the horses mouth. Enough so, that I had to come and see what the fuss was about.

Yes I am gunshy lately over sensitive topics. The last week has cost me at least a small handful of friends due to sensitive topics. And this site has lost a number of good people to them being fed up with arguments.
maybe I should just avoid any topic you post in.