Quote from: Bev on February 09, 2007, 12:27:01 PM
Wow, or maybe whoa...........or even, woe.  I've read this entire thread, and even though it strayed quite a bit from the initial question, I am dismayed to learn that there is a clear predjudice in this enlightened forum, against people who consider themselves transsexual mtf, and still for whatever reason, do not undergo SRS.   I pose a question......did anyone who has undergone SRS refer to themselves as anything other than female, or transsexual??? Gender, my dears, is between MY ears, not yours

Bev please don't assume everyone here feels the same way hon, I don't.

Quote from: Bev on February 09, 2007, 12:27:01 PM
Gender, my dears, is between MY ears, not yours

I *love* it

Kate

Quote from: Susan on February 09, 2007, 12:49:08 PM
Bev please don't assume everyone here feels the same way hon, I don't.

Whoa!   

Quote from: Bev on February 09, 2007, 01:15:13 PM

Quote from: Susan on February 09, 2007, 12:49:08 PM
Bev please don't assume everyone here feels the same way hon, I don't.

Whoa!   

Why whoa?

Bev,

As you can tell from reading the chain, I was not happy about the way things were being said either.  In defense of my "esteemed colleagues" (that's political-speak meaning "those jerks over there"), their attitude caught me completely by surprise, as I have conversed with many of them over the last few months and have nothing but love and respect for them.  It only goes to show that each and every one of us have preconceived notions about things we really haven't thought very much about, and sometimes they just pop out before we realize what we are saying.  This applies to everything from race, gender, politics and religion to more mundane things like which brand of canned corn is best and what we think about people who actually enjoy watching Jerry Springer.  We all are human and none of us are perfect.  To the credit of many, they have admitted their failures and you can be sure they will think a little deeper before making comments like that again.

And you can also be sure that Susan (I thank God for her every day) keeps an eye on things and does not put up with those who make a habit of unacceptable behavior.

With that said, it was disheartening to realize that here, in our safe-to-be-your-true-self outlet, situations like this can occur.  It may take me a little time before I can once again open up some of those deep-dark secret areas to this board, and that is a shame.  We fight these feelings within ourselves because society condemns them (or ridicules them, which may be worse) and so we hide them away.  One of the best things about Susan's Place is that everyone is welcomed and embraced, regardless of where they fall along the gender spectrum.  All those things you couldn't admit to those around you, like wanting to dress like a girl, desperately wanting SRS, or even telling the world you love bluegrass music (guilty), you can tell folks here. 

This one hit particularly hard for me because, as an androgyne and without the Porn connotations, I am already living mentally as a "->-bleeped-<-" (though I don't like that word and would not use it to identify myself), part male and part female.  It is not too far fetched to imagine that one day my outside may match my inside, though right now I have no idea what the specifics would be.

Anyway, don't give up on the people here.  They are all good folks and care more deeply than you may realize.  Let's use this as a wake-up call to check our attitudes at the door and be a little more careful before we jump on the bandwagon.

Love........Laurie



     

I think that this discussion has been a very healthy thing for us.  It brings to the surface our own group dynamic and has forced out the issue that, yes we too, are capable of discrimination.  As a group, we will have the tendancy to exclude others we percieve to be not like us.  It is something that happens in any group. It is something that must be examined from time to time in any group.

With this understanding, perhaps we can adjust our perspective and be more inclussive in our own thoughts and actions.  I would hope that we can all learn from it.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 09, 2007, 06:23:00 PM
As a group, we will have the tendancy to exclude others we percieve to be not like us..

Or perhaps others whom we fear may be more like us than we'd like to admit

Kate

Yes Kate, it is a basic instinct of self preservation.  It's our job to overcome those basic instincts and refine our thoughts and actions to become intelligent human beings.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Susan on February 09, 2007, 01:53:15 PM

Why whoa?

whoa?   ....   Just expressing pleasant surprise at an immediate positive response from the top.  Whoa!.....it's a good thing, like super wow! 

Bev

Quote from: Bev on February 09, 2007, 06:52:40 PM
whoa?   ....   Just expressing pleasant surprise at an immediate positive response from the top.  Whoa!.....it's a good thing, like super wow! 

You should have known how i would feel about it without having to say it, but I am glad I did

I could have made this a TS only site I intentionally chose not to. I could have also said it was TG only Leaving out the IS, SO's, Androgynes, and non-transgendered,  but we would be that much poorer without them being a part of our community.

I am personally glad when anyone decides to bless us with their point of view especially when they may not have the same viewpoint as me.

Quote from: LaurieO on February 09, 2007, 02:15:23 PM
Bev,

....... it was disheartening to realize that here, in our safe-to-be-your-true-self outlet, situations like this can occur.  It may take me a little time before I can once again open up some of those deep-dark secret areas to this board, and that is a shame.
 
........Anyway, don't give up on the people here.  They are all good folks and care more deeply than you may realize.  Let's use this as a wake-up call to check our attitudes at the door and be a little more careful before we jump on the bandwagon.

Love........Laurie 

LaurieO,

I was disheartened as well.
We are a group of people who share common bonds that most others on the planet do not, but the key is, we are all people.  People have opinions.  People have flaws.  I have both. 
The one attribute we all have in common, however, is compassion.  Now that, with our ability to embrace the diverse population that we represent, will keep me coming back.

Love,
Bev

An important lesson for all to hear. Just because someone belongs to an oppressed group, does not mean that they in turn, cannot oppress yet another group. I have seen this attitude in the TG community for years, which is why I steer clear of those so self-identified. In a nutshell, Post-op TS thinks she is better than pre-op TS, who thinks she is better than non-op TS, who thinks she is better than ->-bleeped-<-, who is sure she is better than cross-dresser, etc etc and on and on.  :: sigh ::  Women comparing who has the (biggest) deepest vagina, who is orgasmic and who is not, who passes the best......
And the strange thing is, natal women look at this behaviour, and go....WTF?

Here is the bottom line: being a WOMAN IS EXPERIENTIAL!  It is not something you can buy from a surgeon, from a department store, off a rack, or learn from watching beautiful women in old movies. Females are born, women are made. Regardless of the status of your genitalia at birth, only you know if you were born female or male. But, all the surgery in the world can't make you a woman, if you have not lived as a woman.

QuotePeople have opinions

clever! i have mine, we have ours, they have theirs, you have yours.

my [personal interpretation] of things.

1. sex is the biological difference at birth of people [penis, gonads/vagina and ovaries]
2. gender, however, is usually defined by two things. one is [the difference between how men and women are treated in society], and the things that are generally accepted as [feminine] or [masculine] in our culture.
3. transgender, is someone that [often thinks] that [their physical sex] is not the same as [their psychological identity].
4. transexual, is [someone that will seek hormonal and/or surgical treatment] in order to [bring their body into alignment with their psychological identity.]

QuoteGender analysis recognises that:

    * women's and men's lives and therefore experiences, needs, issues and priorities are different
    * women's lives are not all the same; the interests that women have in common may be determined as much by their social position or their ethnic identity as by the fact they are women
    * women's life experiences, needs, issues and priorities are different for different ethnic groups
    * the life experiences, needs, issues, and priorities vary for different groups of women (dependent on age, ethnicity, disability, income levels, employment status, marital status, sexual orientation and whether they have dependants)
    * different strategies may be necessary to achieve equitable outcomes for women and men and different groups of women/

http://www.gdrc.org/gender/framework/what-is.html

may sound shallow but it's what i believe.

My opinion here..
But i do not think some of it ( the steer in the posting to either categorize or profile or group-however you wanna call it)
has anything to do with gender i think its more human nature.
humans have it seems always grouped and created levels of levels within themselves and their cultures..
Race as an example (without listing what we all know)
money / income?  Poor-working class-upper class-wealthy
Size/looks?  you have the thin breeds, the chunky breeds, and the over weight peoples, and each one dissects and categorizes the next...
On and on.....
anyway i guess my point is when things turn in discussions i think in this case it was not all about gender more some of us reacting in human feelings or terms.
Laurie.. Please do not stop posting some of your inner most feelings...  It would harm me more than help me to see someone of your caliber close down some!  I know i have been tested with this (on some posts i have read/been in) as well and have walked on some egg shells avoiding some topics.  but i have not closed down ...
Please........
xoxo
Ricki

Quote from: Thundra on February 10, 2007, 10:19:07 PM
An important lesson for all to hear. Just because someone belongs to an oppressed group, does not mean that they in turn, cannot oppress yet another group. I have seen this attitude in the TG community for years, which is why I steer clear of those so self-identified. In a nutshell, Post-op TS thinks she is better than pre-op TS, who thinks she is better than non-op TS, who thinks she is better than ->-bleeped-<-, who is sure she is better than cross-dresser, etc etc and on and on.  :: sigh ::  Women comparing who has the (biggest) deepest vagina, who is orgasmic and who is not, who passes the best......
And the strange thing is, natal women look at this behaviour, and go....WTF?

Here is the bottom line: being a WOMAN IS EXPERIENTIAL!  It is not something you can buy from a surgeon, from a department store, off a rack, or learn from watching beautiful women in old movies. Females are born, women are made. Regardless of the status of your genitalia at birth, only you know if you were born female or male. But, all the surgery in the world can't make you a woman, if you have not lived as a woman.

Hi Thundra, experiences have a lot to do with this way of thinking. The experiences of a post-op TS are obviously much different from the experiences of another person in the TG spectrum who is not post-op , so IMO, these experiences make these two individuals "different" in that sense.  Nevertheless this does not give anyone the right to feel "superior" to others. 


tinkerbell

tink my love! Very nicely put!
Two kisses coming your way..  
do not worry they are from me and not my slobbering puppy hunny!
Ricki

QuoteOr... you could say nothing.  Is it that interesting?  I suppose to some it is.

Whoa! Don't get mad at me! The question was how would you to describe what you saw...that was my answer.

Yeah, I know it was ignorant, but that was my point. I think it's important for us to realize that not everyone has the necessary knowledge to react to things that seem out of the ordinary to them in a way that doesn't cause hurt feelings.  I think (hope) that everybody here knows that I have only the best-intentions towards the TG community that I wouldn't intentionally inflict harm on somebody because of that.

It's important to have definitions that are generally accepted so that everybody knows what your talking about and what the context of it means. If "->-bleeped-<-" is generally accepted as a sex-worker that has mixed sexual characteristics than I don't see why they shouldn't be supported here. If "->-bleeped-<-" is generally accepted as an offensive term for someone with mixed sexual characteristics, then it should be made known that it's inappropriate to call someone by that term. The problem: it doesn't seem to have been properly defined.  Definitions seem to be what the fuss is all about anyways.

And Julie, I thank you for providing me with the words that I didn't know before. I would have no problem using them!

Quote from: angelsgirl on February 12, 2007, 09:47:00 AMAnd Julie, I thank you for providing me with the words that I didn't know before.

You're very welcome.

QuoteHi Thundra, experiences have a lot to do with this way of thinking. The experiences of a post-op TS are obviously much different from the experiences of another person in the TG spectrum who is not post-op , so IMO, these experiences make these two individuals "different" in that sense.  Nevertheless this does not give anyone the right to feel more "superior" than others. 

Definitely a valid point in that last line!

But.....more importantly, it is experiences that colour who we are, and how we think. After all, no two women are alike. Similar perhaps, but not alike.

Now, using your example as a template, and changing the terms, we get:
The experiences of a {natal female} are obviously much different from the experiences of a {post-op woman}, so IMO, these experiences make these two individuals "different" in that sense. Stating such, we see where the germ of the seed that creates the superior attitude comes from in the first place.

Why not adapt the same attitude that most women do: if you are a woman, you are a woman. Regardless of your past, you are here now, and hopefully will continue to be part of the sistahood the rest of your life.

Now, for certain, there are plenty of women I do not get along with. Some women are poor, and some wealthy. Some dark-skinned, and some light skinned. Some have periods, and some do not. And to that I guess we must now add, some women are born with a vagina, and some otherwise.

But what about she-males then....people that label themselves as she-males? Are they women? You don't know unless you ask them? If other women accept that person into their fold, than who am I to argue with them? But then, I label myself a womyn, not a woman.

Hi,

   I've been tied up and have lost touch with some threads. When I read the original posting for this thread from Steph, I didn't think anything except:

  I have no problem with a person identifying as She-Male. I understand the negative conotations, however, language is fluid.

   And then I thought:

   Different people learn in different ways. It may be possible that a person identifying theirself as a she-male has only had limited access to the concept. To be honest, I was so programmed that I never even concieved (intellectually) that I could ever physically be anything other than male (though I did feel like a girl) until I was in the Army at 19 years of age. Someone pulled out a pornographic book that revolved around 'she-males', though I don't think the book was titled as that. It was about 1981 and I was shocked! I had no idea what was happening. I told the person to put the damned book away because I'm a reserved person anyway, however, for years after that, I thought those people in the book (who I had only glimpsed) must have been born that way.  Even more wierd, I somehow identified with them. It may be what brought about my brief acceptance of my female self when I was about 21 or 22.
   The feeling I got, though, was that I was a freak. I have a weird brain and I assumed that all Trans people were in porn, so I put it out of my mind as well as I could have. I also didn't know of the term 'trans' and so I thought of myself as a kind of she-male, but born without breasts. (I am weird [a double freak, perhaps?]).
   Later, the freak stereotype was reinforced by the advent of the crappy daily talk shows, which made me truly hate myself.

  Anyway, A person just might not know any better at first and refer to themselves as a she-male.

   [beware, intended tongue in cheek humor ahead]
   An alternative explanation concerning why someone may refer to themself as a she-male is that the (damned) youth culture keeps changing the meaning of words (Join me in prefering the company of she-males to that of young people ). It's possible that "she-male" may one day be the new "23 skidoo" or whatever the hell they say now.
   [End of humor zone]

    In the event that a 'she-male pride' movement starts, I'm okay with that. If an individual needs help, that's where I come in. They can refer to themselves as "cranberries" for all I care. I just want to help make them feel better if that's what they need.

    ***Concerning education:
   I consider myself lucky that I am in this group on Susans. I would say that we are an educated bunch; whether through schooling or hard knocks. We must remember, however, that there are still people with little or no access to the same amount of computer time/use that we have. A person who doesn't fully understand the Trans(everything) concepts and who may not have serious access to a good doctor, may just be confused in terminology.

   I would like to think that the cool attitude that keeps this site in order will continue to accept those who are needy and to bounce the troublemakers for being troublemakers and not for being different.

As usual, I mean no one no harm, nor do I intend anyone any damage (except young people [give me back my youth, you fiends!!]).


Love, Love, Love, and hold my hand,

Rebecca