I'd love to know how GID can be labeled as a medical condition, specifically a birth defect.  We have no medically testable criteria.

I'd love to know how GID can be labeled as a medical psychological condition when we have no medically psychological testable criteria either.

It's all pretty much based on 'because I say so' - but there are no clear markers.

Better science?  I'd be happy for just some science.  At times (as evidenced above) it seems much closer to a religion composed of true believers and apostates more than anything that would be of science, i.e. rational and provable.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 05, 2011, 09:28:22 PM
If it's labeled as a birth defect then what would happen to those who "aren't trans enough?" By that I mean those who figure out they're trans later, or are maybe feminine trans men/masculine trans women.

Don't see why it'd be any different than now. There's a whole bunch of feminine cismen, it should be expected that transmen come in the same range of varieties no matter what the condition is listed under.

Don't see why it should matter when one figures it out either, because (and this is where, and the ONLY where, psychology comes in) we may have been supressing it for all kinds of reasons, or really been made to think that what we were going through was actually normal for someone of our body's sex, etc.

So lets say we could look at the brain structure and see that the person is indeed transsexual (or gender variant in some way), it should be treated the same way as intersex people should be treated:
get medical and surgical treatment in accordance to what (or if) they themselves see fitting and necessary for their personal wellbeing.

The "D" may belong in the DSM.  And it can be found in plenty of areas.

The "GI" doesn't belong in the DSM and it shouldn't be found anywhere.

Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 06:17:23 PM
make use of the rights with this bill if not diagnosed

Actually, that fits many people in here.

For once, Tekla, I agree with you   

Disclaimer: This is not going to be popular

   Transsexual people need medical treatment. We, as a society, need to find better ways to diagnose, support, treat and provide legal protection for those diagnosed with GID. We need to make transition easier for young people by educating youth about transsexualism so that when someone does encounter a transsexual person they are educated enough about them to reduce the chance of discriminating against them. The goal of transition, as outlined in the SOC, is to help someone with GID to adapt physically and socially into the gender opposite their birth and live the rest of their lives spared from emotional pain. Transsexualism isn't a movement... it's a condition. We change our bodies so we are better able to live in our community.

   "Transgender" folks without GID like to wave their flags and march their marches....  They want the world to change for them.

"I don't have a disorder. I don't have a birth defect. I am just a little different than the majority."

   That's fine! No problem!...... But don't expect the millions of people that live with you to change their perception of gender to suit you. As members of a greater society we have to take responsibility for ourselves to live and work in it effectively. Trying to convince a cisgender person that there's a third gender in Western culture is like trying to explain color to someone born blind.... it just doesn't work that way. Stamp your feet and whine all you want but no, I'm sorry... in this society there are two genders.. That's not going to change for you. You have the right to wear whatever you want and present however you want... but don't expect all the women in the ladies room to be all warm and fuzzy when you walk in... you're asking too much.

   When you're sick, you go to the doctor, she gives you medicine, performs surgery if necessary and you're hopefully cured.

   What would happen if clinical depression were suddenly taken off the DSM?  "I don't have a disorder, I'm just sad most of the time..."

   Would that make sense or would we start a movement and march for "equal treatment for people who cry alot?"

    Transgender folks, don't presume to speak for me.

Quote from: interalia on June 05, 2011, 09:32:38 PM
I'd love to know how GID can be labeled as a medical condition, specifically a birth defect.  We have no medically testable criteria.

Really?

Read AMA resolution 122

  I'd say that any condition that makes you want to die instead of living with it is a medical emergency AND condition.

What I wanna know is what has a transgendered person or gay person ever done to these people to ever be so prejudice towards us?!! I can't understand how people think we are treated equally and then slander us this way as if we have committed some sinful act of perversion. Could they even name an incident this occurs? I understand education is lacking when it comes to these types of situations but what is there to be educated about prejudice that hasn't already been taught? I like to think about how racism has come so far the years from what it has been in the past. Now-a-days even black people hate transgendered and gay people, it is a huge joke on stage at a comedians set, it just makes me sick! If we had the numbers like black people have we would have a louder voice. Since we never will all we have is individual circumstances and the chance of wondering if we will have equality in our survival.

Maybe I'm angrier because of the hell I have gone through this year coming out and not "whoring" myself out this time. I have never been called a ->-bleeped-<-got so many times in my life. It just really gets to me that I have never done a single thing to a single person ANYWHERE and I don't even dress bad, just feminine, but I am still clockable, and I have never had to put up with so much prejudice in my life, it just makes me sick. It is because of dudes like this! I couldn't watch the initial video because it just makes me too angry and I have a pretty good idea of the ignorant statements he is making. I guess it was about legally changing gender identifications. What I want to know is what is it to him?! He wont lose any sleep over either way! It matters A LOT to us and they are trying to take away OUR RIGHTS! What have we done?! EVER?

The only hope we have is if we can make it nationally wide publicly known we are not going to take it anymore! That we have as much right to live a normal and civil life as anyone else. They are ruining peoples lives, they came so close to ruining mine, I have seen so many sad stories because of it. If my one letter would make that much of a difference I would write, and write, and write, and write. But my only hope is to educate Myself, and to one day have the tools to make the changes for people after me. It is a dream of mine one day, but I far to often see a dead end, a brick wall being stacked brick upon brick, solely to stop me from feeling natural, beautiful, and happy. They have no right to take my rights, our rights, they are the ones who should have to suffer discrimination they are the criminals, not us.

Quote from: JessicaR on June 06, 2011, 02:39:28 AM
Really?

Read AMA resolution 122

This resolution makes the claim it is a "serious medical condition" staying that it is identified as suchin the DSM-IV-TR and the ICD-10 but this is incorrect. Neither of these authoritative diagnostic books label this as a medical condition.

The DSM is not a medical diagnostic book.  The ICD is but it lists transsexualism with it's mental disorders section right above transvestic fetishism. Is TV also medical condition?

Quote

  I'd say that any condition that makes you want to die instead of living with it is a medical emergency AND condition.

Quote from: JessicaR on June 06, 2011, 02:33:51 AM
   What would happen if clinical depression were suddenly taken off the DSM?  "I don't have a disorder, I'm just sad most of the time..."

Who is suggesting clinical depression should be removed from the DSM? 

Lots of people are depressed for lots of different reasons so there's no way clinical depression will be removed from the DSM.  But why should there be some causes of clinical depression that are specifically mentioned and not others?  Either itemize all the causes or just simply establish a process for which to diagnose depression, regardless of the cause.

Let's say gender identity is removed from the DSM.  A person who is suffering depression, because the world they knew just collapsed when they came out as trans, walks into a therapist's office.

Therapist: "What's bothering you?"
Client: "I think I'm suffering from depression."
Therapist: "Okay, why don't we talk about it..."

There's no way any therapist will tell you "Oh, your depression is because you're trans?  I'm sorry, we don't treat that kind of depression."

The SOC will still exist.  Treatment will still be offered.  And maybe your insurance will cover physical treatment rather than just mental treatment.  The most common reason our surgeries are not included in one's coverage is because of the stigma, NOT because of the cost.

And we won't have to hear the FACT that the APA says we have a mental disorder and the subsequent conclusion by the uneducated that we need therapy, not acceptance, not civil rights, not employment anti-discrimination laws. 

It takes time, but it can happen, but not as long as any anti-trans activists can open a manual created by the American Psychiatric Association and use it as proof this is a mental disorder.

Quote from: interalia on June 05, 2011, 09:32:38 PM
I'd love to know how GID can be labeled as a medical condition, specifically a birth defect.  We have no medically testable criteria.

The presence of mutation in the promoter of the gene that codes for the aromatase protein is but one of other genetic maskers for GID!  Hello needs to keep up with developments darling

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 05, 2011, 07:51:49 PM
There are people here and elsewhere in the TG community who, when they hear someone say gender identity is not a mental disorder, will tell you you're wrong.  And some will fight you tooth and nail insisting they absolutely suffer from a mental disorder and that GID must remain in the DSM.

I never viewed it as a mental disorder.  Obviously there were counseling hoops that had to be jumped through courtesy of the insipid SoC although work-arounds existed to limit the time one had to spend with a shrink. 

What I had was a medical condition.  Once the birth defect was addressed via medical intervention, all was good in my world in terms of the necessary congruences with the binary to which I subscribed. 

When viewed from the context of mental health treatment, I fail to see where anyone gains from the continued inclusion of anything associated with a transsexual medical condition.  Mental health care is not going to generally be successful at getting the patient to feel comfortable with the body in its birth condition, and psychotropics are not going to cure the condition.  This is not like a bi-polar condition or depression or other issue where the condition becomes magically manageable by sitting on a couch for an hour a week talking to some shrink...

Also concur wholeheartedly with Valerie's comments...there exists absolute ZERO need to qualify the term 'individual' when defining what transsexuality is or is not. 

Quote from: kate durcal on June 06, 2011, 03:24:11 PM
The presence of mutation in the promoter of the gene that codes for the aromatase protein is but one of other genetic maskers for GID!  Hello needs to keep up with developments darling

This is an excellent study, I just read it.  Finally there is a study done that didn't have to rely on non-significant (p >.05) correlations for their conclusions like the famous "dead-brains" study.  This is another great stepping point to continue analyzing the biology behind our condition.

Unfortunately, correlational studies, even highly significant ones, do not diagnostic criteria make - additionally I couldn't find any replicated studies yet.  The study could be vastly improved though by testing MTF who are not on hormones in significant numbers - good luck finding many of those though.  Also adding FTMs vs GG would be wonderful.

So while this is excellent data to add to the growing body of information, it isn't a smoking gun.  Schizophrenia has similar evidence for an elongated gene (CAGCAGCAG etc) that is strongly linked to it in numerous studies - so many in fact it is considered to be the cause of the disorder, yet it still is not considered a medical condition even though it is treatable in a medical way.  Presence of the elongated gene sequence in a person only predisposes them for Schizophrenia, but it is environmental conditions that activate it.  This model is becoming the popular model for the diagnosis, treatment, and causes of most mental illnesses - biological predisposition coupled with environmental triggers, known as the diathesis-stress model.  Right now, it seems GID is fitting more and more into this model - but it has a LOT of research to go.

I'm excited - thanks for sharing!

Quote from: interalia on June 06, 2011, 04:50:17 PM
This is an excellent study, I just read it.  Finally there is a study done that didn't have to rely on non-significant (p >.05) correlations for their conclusions like the famous "dead-brains" study.  This is another great stepping point to continue analyzing the biology behind our condition.

Unfortunately, correlational studies, even highly significant ones, do not diagnostic criteria make - additionally I couldn't find any replicated studies yet.  The study could be vastly improved though by testing MTF who are not on hormones in significant numbers - good luck finding many of those though.  Also adding FTMs vs GG would be wonderful.

So while this is excellent data to add to the growing body of information, it isn't a smoking gun.  Schizophrenia has similar evidence for an elongated gene (CAGCAGCAG etc) that is strongly linked to it in numerous studies - so many in fact it is considered to be the cause of the disorder, yet it still is not considered a medical condition even though it is treatable in a medical way.  Presence of the elongated gene sequence in a person only predisposes them for Schizophrenia, but it is environmental conditions that activate it.  This model is becoming the popular model for the diagnosis, treatment, and causes of most mental illnesses - biological predisposition coupled with environmental triggers, known as the diathesis-stress model.  Right now, it seems GID is fitting more and more into this model - but it has a LOT of research to go.

I'm excited - thanks for sharing!

Since I hae access to a PCR and sequencing machine at work, I analyzed my own DNA (I am pre HRT), the DNA of my 3 sons, and two pre HRT TS friends. My two TS friend and I had the aromatase gene mutation, none of my boys had it (they are not TG).

Kate D

Hello,
Before slamming this politician, think of how he is paving the road.  Yes, it is a paving process!!!  As a medical professional, be THANKFUL that TG is in the DSM.....it has a name!  It also has recognition. Everyone has to take baby steps before walking.  Think back to how bad it was 20 years ago.  The term TG should stay in the DSM for many reasons.  If it doesn't have a name.....how can it be diagnosed?  How can insurance companies assist "honestly" with the medical issues (hormones, etc.).  No, in my experience as a medical professional (greater than 30years) it is NOT ok to diagnose with a hormone imbalance.  That is inaccurate.  TG's most generally make their own hormone imbalance.  It is not a medical issue.  It remains a psychological issue which can be treated medically. 

This is no different than someone who is bipolar.  The medical issues which result from being bipolar (which is a psychological diagnosis) can be treated based on the DSM IV diagnosis.

Wake up people.....before you make matters worse than they already are for you.  Just something to think about.  there is more ways to skin a cat.  Don't be so sensitive.  Use it to your advantage!

Angel

Quote from: Angelray on June 09, 2011, 04:51:13 PM
No, in my experience as a medical professional (greater than 30years) it is NOT ok to diagnose with a hormone imbalance.  That is inaccurate.  TG's most generally make their own hormone imbalance.  It is not a medical issue.  It remains a psychological issue which can be treated medically. 

This is no different than someone who is bipolar.  The medical issues which result from being bipolar (which is a psychological diagnosis) can be treated based on the DSM IV diagnosis.
!

Angel

Hello Dr Angel,

The last 10 years have seen the publication of more than a dozen papers showing that GID  or more specifically TS is indeed a biologically, a medical condition. The data points to the basal nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) as the center responsible for gender identity in humans.

Mutation in several genes who are expressed in the BST such as: the aromatase gene, and the estrogen and testosterone receptor gene seem to be implicated in the formation or lack thereof of a BST congruent with the individual chromosomal gender. Specifically,  a mutation in the promoter region of the aromatase gene have been identified in TS individuals, this mutation is to my knowledge the first genetic marker for TS individuals, and thus takes the TS diagnosis out of psychiatry and into the realm of of neurological birth defects (a medical condition).

Just because TS is now a medical condition, specifically a birth defect, does not means that its treatment will not be covered by health insurances.


Dr. Kate D

GID is not the same as bipolar, or any other psychological disorder. 

Those who suffer from mind-body gender conflict may initially experience euphoria after beginning HRT but, if physical changes do not follow, the euphoria will not last.  HRT is a necessary part of our physical health, not a medication for a psychological problem.  Without the physical changes from birth gender to identified gender, no medication in the world will end the dysphoria.

Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 11:02:15 AM
And if you need proof of that, look at what happened with the public perception of gays after "homosexual" was removed from the DSM.

The greater change in public perception however came when the gays came out and people found out that they knew someone who was gay, and at that moment all the stereotypes, the hate and the misperceptions melted away.

Gay men were just normal human beings, well who would have thought that haha

Actually they turned out to be slightly better than normal.  They weren't the thugs, the low-lifes and bums, they were your favorite entertainers, the real 'nice guy' at the office, the person down the street who still took care of his mother, college graduates, opera patrons and all that stuff.

Quote from: tekla on June 10, 2011, 09:50:12 AM
Actually they turned out to be slightly better than normal.  They weren't the thugs, the low-lifes and bums, they were your favorite entertainers, the real 'nice guy' at the office, the person down the street who still took care of his mother, college graduates, opera patrons and all that stuff.

...and the people who, when they took over your neighborhood, caused property value to rise.  Try buying real estate in West Hollywood!