There's another side to this as well. Being gay we face the risk of being rejected and brushed of as straight within the gay community.

Seriously though, this topic is an excellent example of how instead of discriminated groups understanding and supporting eachother they try to step on eachother pointing and screaming "at least I'm not like THEM!"

You are not at risk because we are allied with the LGB, you are at risk because you once had different parts. People jumped to their conclusions about trans people just being gays before we were allied with the LGB, just like people jumped to the conclusion that all gay men actually wanted to be women before we were allied. The cooperation, as I see it, has only worked to clear up some of those misconceptions.

Yesterday in Spokane WA we had PRIDE.
The largest group of out and proud TS and TG people (Spokane TRANS People) marched in the parade with the local LGBT. Including me and Sevan.

There was no talk of separtism, no talk of fractioning into groups. We were one group with one goal. Visability.

United we stand.....

Quote from: Wraith on June 12, 2011, 01:33:28 AM
You are not at risk because we are allied with the LGB, you are at risk because you once had different parts. People jumped to their conclusions about trans people just being gays before we were allied with the LGB, just like people jumped to the conclusion that all gay men actually wanted to be women before we were allied.

^^
This.

I think the LGB would have and easier time fighting discrimination and gaining social acceptance without the T.

But I don't think it would help us at all.   Not enough of us (especially not enough willing to be advocates) or money for us to be taken seriously.

The way I see it is that most of what the LGBT organizations currently fight for benefits us and I don't understand the arguments from the T   side for separation -  I think we would loose a lot.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 08, 2011, 09:25:16 AM
but when push comes to shove, it was NOT the manner of presentation that creates problems for gays and/or lesbians...rather it is precisely BECAUSE of the fact of BEING gay or lesbian.       

That is absolutely NOT true.  The problems for lesbians and gay men are almost ENTIRELY due to their non-traditional gender expression.  The main reason why gay men are often the targets of ridicule from, say, straight men has very little basis in their actual orientation, but in the way that they present themselves.  The stigma that gay men face in society can largely be attributed to the misogyny of society that tells us that femininity is somehow less valuable and desirable than masculinity and therefore, men who exhibit femininity are considered less valuable- and less of "real men"- to the society at large.  It ALL has to do with presentation.

Quote from: EmilyElizabeth on June 15, 2011, 12:51:07 AM
That is absolutely NOT true.  The problems for lesbians and gay men are almost ENTIRELY due to their non-traditional gender expression.  The main reason why gay men are often the targets of ridicule from, say, straight men has very little basis in their actual orientation, but in the way that they present themselves.  The stigma that gay men face in society can largely be attributed to the misogyny of society that tells us that femininity is somehow less valuable and desirable than masculinity and therefore, men who exhibit femininity are considered less valuable- and less of "real men"- to the society at large.  It ALL has to do with presentation.

I cannot really speak to gay men since I never was one and only spent time around a small number of them...most of whom were NOT walking stereotypes and thus projected no presentation issues that served to cause them problems. 

But I guess my experiences over the close to the past 30 years with the lesbian community count for nothing (I was active in the community even before graduation from high school).  I'd say I had a pretty good size cross-sampling of societal response to lesbians given the number of different areas I have lived in my career.  Who we sleep with is NOT gender expression. 

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 15, 2011, 09:45:37 AM
You think butches and andros don't face more discrimination? Seriously?

Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? 

But bottom line, no, it is NOT about appearance.  It IS about simply being gay or lesbian. 

I think appearances count for a lot more than you're letting on.

I am gonna have to back Sarah7 on this one.

Also Ann you said "Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? "

Now you are throwing out red herrings. She never said anything of the sort and you know it.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 10:04:23 AM
I am gonna have to back Sarah7 on this one.

Also Ann you said "Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? "

Now you are throwing out red herrings. She never said anything of the sort and you know it.

Sarah is the one that narrowed the scope of the topic being discussed...and in the grand scheme, butch and andro peeps are a small percentage of the overall gay and lesbian community.  So if a red herring was tossed, it was NOT I who introduced it into the discussion... 

But to bring this back full circle, I still have seen nothing that warrants the T being in the alphabet soup.  I held that Opinion 20 or so years ago and I continue to hold that feeling...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 15, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
But to bring this back full circle, I still have seen nothing that warrants the T being in the alphabet soup.  I held that Opinion 20 or so years ago and I continue to hold that feeling...

Ann, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.  As I've said before, T is the tie that binds us all together.  And I will always see it that way until someone convinces me otherwise.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 15, 2011, 10:23:05 AM
It is very frightening and terrible, moreso because it is not just a few fanatics but spans across society.

And those in that span of society you are referring to are led by the few very good spinners, be it in politics, religion or elsewhere.  For some things, people just don't want to take the time to do their own analysis so they choose to believe what they see on TV.

It is those people that feel it is their duty (and mission) to rid society of this plague

Actually, to tell the absolute unvarnished truth, the reality is that far and away the vast majority of people in American society really don't give a ->-bleeped-<-.  Your misfortune and none of my own as the old American ballad goes.  There are concentrated pockets of people who feel this way, and if you're in one of them I'd suggest you move, because those places are about to slowest to change.  And granted they have a couple of real loudmouth speakers, but those people have followers who for the most part are old, fat and can't chase you any faster than their Hover-round can carry them.  And old.  Did I say old and fat?  Yeah, they are not going to be with us much longer.

Quote from: tekla on June 15, 2011, 11:41:24 AMAnd granted they have a couple of real loudmouth speakers, but those people have followers who for the most part are old, fat and can't chase you any faster than their Hover-round can carry them.  And old.  Did I say old and fat?  Yeah, they are not going to be with us much longer.

This has been my experience as well.  The loudest bigots tend to be aging fast, and declining even faster.  This probably is because they spend all their time trying to force other people to live by arbitrary rules that they themselves don't abide, rather than doing something practical with their own lives (such as improving their diet or exercise, for example)

I listen to Christian radio programs.  I'm the type of person that believes in keeping my friends close, but my enemies closer.  Anyway, it is always the "old" guys talking who hold the most judgments.  The younger talkers tend to be more open-minded, more reasonable, and more willing to concede in arguments if the opposition makes a valid point.  They also tend to think more critically and logically.  Sometimes they even make good arguments on hot issues (such as abortion) without referring to the Bible at all.

The world is getting smaller, figuratively speaking.  We are living in a world where it is becoming impossible to step on everyone else's toes.  People are learning how to compromise and work with people of varying beliefs and lifestyles.  Those who do not learn how to compromise are going to have a hard time living in another decade or two.

I agree that the T does bind. From my own experience, we are joined at the hip. I support whatever will benefit the gay, lesbian, and bisexual communities. Yes, our issues may be different but we suffer the same oppression without and within the community.

Recently when I was at the community center I was obvserving the many expressions of gender and sexuality. I said to myself that they are my brothers and sisters. This is the way I feel and we need to support one another.

Gennee

I would suggest that our community has only gotten the legal advances in many states and cities due to coat tail politics. We don't have the numbers and are still 20 years behind the L & G communities for social acceptance. Heck, we're still trying to fight our way out of the DSM ! (something that gays and lesbians did long ago)

I understand Val D's point to a degree, but violence is violence as Tekla said. To Julie's point and others, gays and lesbians often cross gender lines with their gender expression. However, the difference between them and us is that their gender identity conforms with their birth sex. Ours does not.

I'm sure though, that some gender queer gay and lesbians stay within their own communities, and choose not to transition because a) they like to be accepted by the group b) they have a better chance of 'hooking' up and finding a partner if they remain in their same physical and social gender. I know of one lesbian who dropped her GF because that person is now transitioning male. This woman now has her eyes affixed to my friend who is MTF.

So in the end, you can be T and not L,G, or B-or not. If you're LGB you can also be T. Some segments of society, however, will see us as all queer or wrong while others won't care at all. Just the way it is. 

Hi,

I'm comeing at  this  from a very different view point  *& county  N Z,, 

  i work alone  & i get better results as well. im allso different, im intersex both male & female not seperated dont think as one or the other ,

I allso learnd 14 years ago i had no trans friends nore knew any . so what i did was stay close to my women friends & i talked with them mind you tranistion was not a word i used because i did not change from one gender to another hence my difference. so it was stand alone ,

Over the last few years iv been accepted as a person & as a woman in my own right, the trans community here is so fragmented that they dont agree among them selfs so theres no point to have all the different groups of people even try  to work to gether it wont happen ,

If your trans = transsexual you will have the same rights as any woman tho many lesbain wont agree with that because they dont accept any males let alone trans, so if you have any detail being a male background then your out. even when you live as a woman whos had surgery,& iv been told that to my face, from lesbain who i thought were friends,  now not all are like that of cause i do have lesbain friends who are my our friends,

I have put on air in the media = papers & nation wide T V  what its like for a transfemale to live , & as a woman, & being well known as well  people do & have heard what its like & are willing to accept difference .

If i had tryed to work with the trans community it would not have happened, as it was i did try after some time,

The other point ill  make is the trans  community dont wont intersex people around them . that to i know from my friend who was told to not come to any meetings that where takeing place ,

so my thinking is till people with in the trans community accept others with thier many difference's working to gether will never happen, . okay thats here in N Z ,  You know the meaning of the word  undertow , well thats what its like,  now there may be afew  who are willing to accept difference tho not many .

...noeleena...

The T belongs in the LGB because of shared oppressors and many transsexuals like me and a host of others volunteer time to the LGBT on a regular basis.
We are part of the political alliance that puts in a fair share of man hours.

Now if you can convince these T women and men to stop being part of their local LGBT you will have a tough row to hoe.
For many of us the local LGBT centers are the hub of socialization. The only calm port in a stormy sea of bigotry.

The T belongs in the alphabet soup because alot of us are doing our damndest to keep it in there.

Here's the real deal.  If Section A of a group wants to DO, and Section B does not, well the DO side always wins out.  It will be done as long as some members are willing to do it.  As long as there are people like Cynthialee and myself, all the people in in all the basements writing on all the blogs is not going to change it.

Most people alienate themselves from the T community because of the stigma.  If we had the same respect and social status as the Two Spirit did, we would be one of the top rungs of the social ladder.  The only way to rid T of the stigma is by being seen and heard and then by presenting ourselves with respect and dignity.  Eventually the tide will turn.

Stealth, alienating each other, fighting among ourselves, alienating our allies, will all delay or impede any progress we might enjoy had we all just worked together.  And instead of 20 or 30 years, it will take 100 years.

Val,
You may well be right. But the genie is out of the bottle. There is scant chance that the LGBT will ever fraction or take the T off the end.
I think that perhaps it would serve those who share your opinion to focus energy into some other venture that can net social change. As it is the majority of trans folks out there have no clue as to the war over alphabet soups and the TS/TG thing. The majority are just living life and doing their thing. They don't read the bloggs and news sites you and I do. How can you hope to disassociate the T from the soup when the majority of the T folks working with their local LGBT do not even have exposure to this debate?