Quote from: Cowboi on July 01, 2011, 03:45:49 PM
Wait we are allowed to not ALL feel the same way? I am outraged by this accusation

I'm outraged at your outrage!

It is hard to sit with the tension between unity and diversity - there's something about our individual experiences that draws us strongly together on this forum, and yet we're all so different too. We humans are often both afraid of being alone, and afraid of losing our identity to the group (and being "different from the norm" has shown many of us the darker side of both those). But they're both optional.

I find it interesting that on a support forum with many people in similar situations, there are still so many biased views and controversy. I guess that means its simple to state that everyone is different, whether you have something in common or not. So, while there is the freedom to point out your view on a subject, it doesn't mean everyone will agree or change their view and there will never be one exact way people reply to posters.

Quote from: Samantharz on July 01, 2011, 03:55:35 PM
This thread has gotten a bit off topic. This was a discussion about being truthful in the "do I pass" thread. Somehow this got evolved to a debate on whether passing is necessary and how to pass.

You are so much nicer than I am. I made this same point in a more harshly worded post last night, which got completely ignored.

It feels so silly to me being in this convo because I totally agree with the idea that passing and attitude have a lot to do with one another, but I'm also trying to stick to the idea that this post is not actually about those two things or the idea of rather or not passing=/=bad. All of the good roller coaster threads become this strange jumble of off topic things around here. Sometimes I like it, but other times it wears on the nerves that we can't talk about even one thing serious and stay on topic lol.

Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it. There are facial features that are proven to evoke a masculine or female response in a viewer (these studies have been conducted at world renowned universities), and most transgenders want their masculine features to, if they have them, be improved. Sexual looks also do play a part; even if a trans has relatively female features, if the trans is still considered very odd or ugly looking in a female role or to normal society (obese, misaligned features, skin problems, ect ect), they often want improvements to these sometimes negative features or health problems as well. Trans are people who want to blend positively into a society like a normal attractive girl would, and this includes dating and social roles. A drag queen is someone who wants to "be proud" of masculine features, to flaunt those masculine features while dressing like a woman. A drag queen is the "shock value" version of a transgender. Most of us here do not want to be drag queens.

And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult. My experience with adolescent psychology has caused me to come to the conclusion that young adults DO need to look sexy in their chosen identity to build a sense of confidence that will help them survive happily the modern world of technology, fashion, and media. This importance amplifies if a person has a career in media fields, studies show. By no means should a person block themselves from seeking surgical or aesthetic improvements just "for the heck of it", and anyone who is opposed to improvements of any sort is doing so for religiously-inspired reasons. There's just no scientific evidence out there that confidence or "swagger" makes a difference in people of any identity or orientation. Current studies show that looks play the bigger part, as these studies have been done using very complex controls that were not obtainable even just decades ago.

Quite frankly, the case is that if anyone begins to want surgery, they probably are doing so because they've received negative comments already. If someone has not thought of FFS, then chances are, they already pass very well or have somehow found a way to make themselves confident in other ways. There is no 'set cure' for everyone and confidence has the right to come from all sorts of things. Because of sociology and family upbringing, people have the right to base their confidence in a physical image just as much as they have the right to base it on what genitals they have or what career, car, hobbies, or house they have. We're all different and the world would be pretty stale if we weren't.

It's really the same thing as getting the appropriate haircut or finding the appropriate clothes. Surgery is not always meant to give one a "sexy, model" look; surgery is oftentimes done to simply balance out the face or body, and I know the purpose of plastic surgery because I've been a plastic surgery consultant for over 4 years and have underwent procedures myself. I'm usually not the person who brags about experience (I hate when therapists do the same thing) but at the same time, I do not tell people what is required of them or what is right or wrong for them. I simply give people the descriptions of options like a true therapist does, including what I feel to be modern studies that support the freedom of choice, as opposed to the opposition.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult.

That's rather misleading... many young people in relationships let their looks go to pot while many single older people dress to impress.  Then again, young people in relationships may dress to impress and single older people may not give a toss about how they look.  My grandfather, up until two months before he was hospitalized for dementia, would never leave the house without his hair oiled back, impeccably groomed, clean and pressed clothes, the whole nine yards.  When he had to go on oxygen, he refused to leave the house ever again because of vanity, and that decision hastened his decline from congestive heart failure.

Also, let's not forget the silent epidemic of STD's spreading through nursing homes.  Senior citizens think that they don't need protection from pregnancy and so they get careless, but transmission of disease still occurs.

All the research that I've read says that sex drive doesn't necessarily diminish due to age, nor do the rules of attraction and the importance of appearance.  Looks are looks and sex is sex, regardless of how many years one has been here.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted.

I remain unconvinced that drag queens want to be insulted.

Well, there are horny old folks and no study has ever said that every person is a victim to a loss of libido with age, but the numbers just do decline. However, there's a billion factors involving it, all the way down to health problems, religious beliefs, cultural divides, all that stuff. I truly did not mean that age 40 is where sex just does not become important, but it always seems to be the age where sexuality just tends to start declining for all the reasons above.

With the psychology of sexual attraction, adolescents plain out think about sexual thoughts in a physical manner. They think of faces, they think of bodies, they think of genitals, they think of very physical and specific things; I've rarely met an adolescent who didn't think in this manner. With older age, a combination of things comes into play more frequently. While parts of our sexual system "just get used to" the fact that our dating scene ages with us (and thus we have to settle for less attractive partners), this actually tends to transfer in a complex manner; as we get older, we tend to think of sexual acts in an emotional way. For instance, while an elderly couple may be sexuality active, it is indeed pretty rare that they are attracted to the features of their partner (wrinkles, grey hair, health problems, ect ect) and the sexuality may come more from a emotional place (sexual thoughts may consist more of things like "my partner's so brave and mature" or "my partners so submissive.") It's a form of sexuality that's often noticed in gay men who are trying to become straight (where a gay man may use emotional thoughts or in-the-mind fantasies or memories to get turned on, as opposed to being physically attracted to his spouse.)

Now, I'm not bagging on forms of sexuality one bit and people can be turned on however they wish, it's just that really, it is a common thing for an older adult to say "No one cares how you look sonny, just go be a heathrob and all the girls will run to you." when that only works in much older age groups. When a person is 11-30, that technique only works if the partner they are attracting has a weak emotional complex (for example, the ugly straight guys who know to flirt with the weak girls who have emotional obsessions with sex because of a lack of a good family life.) Again, frankly, adolescence and young adult years are the most common age groups that look at sex in a physical and quite detailed mentality; with later years, sexuality is something that grows more into the emotions of a person. It's not that way for older folks who do have the lucky opportunity to date much younger and much sexier folks (Hugh Heftner?), but to most older adults, thinking of sex in an emotional way is sometimes the main coping technique and source of erection or sexual feelings; it's a technique that is entirely subliminal and some folks develop this even as soon as their sexuality develops as a teen.

And it's really the reason that older adults often forget the importance of specific appearance traits; however, studies also do prove that many folks just do have a loss of libido with age and that they can forget about the importance of sex altogether. Some people never even have sexual drives to begin with. It's just sort of a random bag that can never be taken in exact terms, but can explain many oppositions to say, aesthetic surgery or "becoming ourselves".

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 01, 2011, 11:28:34 PM
I remain unconvinced that drag queens want to be insulted.

Why is it everyone has to pick one little thing out of a post and make it sound as if its true or written in stone.

She did not write that in her post, it may have been interpreted that way if though of reversed. I feel there are probably quite a few drag queens that if you said they look like a man in a dress they would probably say Oh I bet you say that to all the girls.

Does anybody think Rupal is really a woman and do you think he cares!

BIG! BIG! difference

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it. There are facial features that are proven to evoke a masculine or female response in a viewer (these studies have been conducted at world renowned universities), and most transgenders want their masculine features to, if they have them, be improved. Sexual looks also do play a part; even if a trans has relatively female features, if the trans is still considered very odd or ugly looking in a female role or to normal society (obese, misaligned features, skin problems, ect ect), they often want improvements to these sometimes negative features or health problems as well. Trans are people who want to blend positively into a society like a normal attractive girl would, and this includes dating and social roles. A drag queen is someone who wants to "be proud" of masculine features, to flaunt those masculine features while dressing like a woman. A drag queen is the "shock value" version of a transgender. Most of us here do not want to be drag queens.

And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult. My experience with adolescent psychology has caused me to come to the conclusion that young adults DO need to look sexy in their chosen identity to build a sense of confidence that will help them survive happily the modern world of technology, fashion, and media. This importance amplifies if a person has a career in media fields, studies show. By no means should a person block themselves from seeking surgical or aesthetic improvements just "for the heck of it", and anyone who is opposed to improvements of any sort is doing so for religiously-inspired reasons. There's just no scientific evidence out there that confidence or "swagger" makes a difference in people of any identity or orientation. Current studies show that looks play the bigger part, as these studies have been done using very complex controls that were not obtainable even just decades ago.

Quite frankly, the case is that if anyone begins to want surgery, they probably are doing so because they've received negative comments already. If someone has not thought of FFS, then chances are, they already pass very well or have somehow found a way to make themselves confident in other ways. There is no 'set cure' for everyone and confidence has the right to come from all sorts of things. Because of sociology and family upbringing, people have the right to base their confidence in a physical image just as much as they have the right to base it on what genitals they have or what career, car, hobbies, or house they have. We're all different and the world would be pretty stale if we weren't.

It's really the same thing as getting the appropriate haircut or finding the appropriate clothes. Surgery is not always meant to give one a "sexy, model" look; surgery is oftentimes done to simply balance out the face or body, and I know the purpose of plastic surgery because I've been a plastic surgery consultant for over 4 years and have underwent procedures myself. I'm usually not the person who brags about experience (I hate when therapists do the same thing) but at the same time, I do not tell people what is required of them or what is right or wrong for them. I simply give people the descriptions of options like a true therapist does, including what I feel to be modern studies that support the freedom of choice, as opposed to the opposition.

I dont think there is any question that you are totally clueless!  I'll wire you $1000 if you can guess my age

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on July 01, 2011, 11:07:38 PM
That's rather misleading... many young people in relationships let their looks go to pot while many single older people dress to impress.  Then again, young people in relationships may dress to impress and single older people may not give a toss about how they look.  My grandfather, up until two months before he was hospitalized for dementia, would never leave the house without his hair oiled back, impeccably groomed, clean and pressed clothes, the whole nine yards.  When he had to go on oxygen, he refused to leave the house ever again because of vanity, and that decision hastened his decline from congestive heart failure.

Also, let's not forget the silent epidemic of STD's spreading through nursing homes.  Senior citizens think that they don't need protection from pregnancy and so they get careless, but transmission of disease still occurs.

All the research that I've read says that sex drive doesn't necessarily diminish due to age, nor do the rules of attraction and the importance of appearance.  Looks are looks and sex is sex, regardless of how many years one has been here.

I agree. I'm betting that RhinoP(lasty) is a college freshman home on summer break and has had a human sexuality class.

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 02, 2011, 12:04:15 AM
Why is it everyone has to pick one little thing out of a post and make it sound as if its true or written in stone.

I felt that it wasn't necessary to pick out RhinoP's other grievous stereotypes of drag queens, as they were all based on the same assumption.

If you like, I can pick out a few more of RhinoP's assumptions.  I felt this wasn't necessary as they should be obvious to anyone who read RhinoP's post.  Apparently, I was wrong.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it.

For one thing, this excludes trans men from the story. For another, to me the definition is more the experience of already being another gender from the one you've been physically lumped with (if we're talking in binary terms), and there's no necessary implication of "wanting to entirely blend in with a [gender] culture". For some people that blending in is important, and for some it isn't.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
While parts of our sexual system "just get used to" the fact that our dating scene ages with us (and thus we have to settle for less attractive partners), this actually tends to transfer in a complex manner; as we get older, we tend to think of sexual acts in an emotional way. For instance, while an elderly couple may be sexuality active, it is indeed pretty rare that they are attracted to the features of their partner (wrinkles, grey hair, health problems, ect ect) and the sexuality may come more from a emotional place

So what you're saying is that nobody on earth finds older people attractive in any way, shape, or form?  Not even older people?  We just lose our looks and that's it?  Time's up?

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
however, studies also do prove that many folks just do have a loss of libido with age and that they can forget about the importance of sex altogether.

Then please explain to me the plethora of advertisements showing middle-aged PGA rejects going to their TV doctors for stiffy pills.  I'm sure Pfizer's losing a bunch of money by trying to sell Viagra to an uninterested market.

I've taken human sexuality.  In the past year even.  Never heard tell of a single study that mentioned anything you're saying, which seems 100% biased on your opinion that every single person in the world wants young and pretty, and that older people are just washed up.  And if there's anything to adult sexuality, it's not that emotions overtake looks, it's that emotions compliment looks.  That doesn't have anything to do with not looking like someone on the cover of J-14 (or dating someone of that ilk) but everything to do with the emotional maturity that escapes 99% of teenagers.  And that's nothing against teenagers either, but simple biology: complete myelination of the frontal lobes, a center of emotional regulation, isn't complete until around age 25.

Off the record?  I'd do Sean Connery.  Just sayin'.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:31:22 PM
I would have to 100% disagree with this. A place for support is not a place where people will give out false responses. I am sure the girls who post in the "Do I pass?" thread wants honest feedback. One would assume the "You look fabulous darling" thread is about positive responses so if they want just positive responses then they could there.

One of the biggest assets of a support group is the ability to be honest with each other and to help each other on this journey and to hold each other accountable. To lie in a support forum negates the very essence of why support even exists. So I have to respectfully disagree with your ideals on this matter.

I completely agree!

I'd MUCH rather be told "you really need to do X" as be told I was passing if I wasn't.

I can see a case for not telling the questioner about something they can't possibly practically fix, maybe, because (unless it's a thread about "what surgery do I need?") saying "OMG that's a gigantic nose!" really doesn't help them.
But it's a failure of friendship if they have big caterpillar eyebrows and you say "you pass great!" without giving the advice they are begging you for.

IMO

Quote from: cynthialee on June 30, 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

On the other hand, i would also argue that because we make an intense study of the finest details of "looking female" we can also over-analyze. WE notice your hairline because we realize it's an indicator, but MOST people who pass you in the aisle in the grocery are NOT going to say "I see a skirt, i see tits, i see makeup ...but i'll be darned if that isn't a masculine hairline!!!"


They are not looking that close.

now, maybe one's voice outs them and THEN people look again for clues, but in my mind "passing" is not "cannot be detected" but rather "generally goes unnoticed" - my idea of passing is that i'm just like any other (mildly homely) woman you might meet - not that i can stand up to Sherlock Holmes.

Very true Tammy

Most folks are not scrutinizing that closely... Some are, but when I went to the store this eve. the checker and bag boy were so busy flirting, I had to ask the bag boy to hand me my stuff and nearly had to walk the checker through her thing

Night crew youngsters 

I really think going to get attacked for this and will regret saying it the second I post but...

for ME, susans has been a great place where ive been able to get some good advice on practical things, talk with similar-minded and -predicamented people, the like..

but i think how much some people focus on the photos is a bit absurd. the "do i pass" threads are great for people who are looking for GENUINE CONFIRMATION that they can safely enter a mens/ladies room, that they can introduce themself as elizabeth/thomas and not be laughed at.

i whole heartedly believe in all the following philosophies: passing is more than a picture, confidence matters, sometimes people don't look as hard as we do for 'clues', etc and I think it all boils down to one thing:

USE THE REAL WORLD. want to know if you pass? well, do you get called sir or ma'am by every day people? when you introduce yourself as erica do people ask you if you just said your name was eric?

I'm not advocating you girls just starting out in transition to throw on a pink miniskirt and run into a public restroom because "confidence is what matters most" and I think all intelligent people reading this know that. I'm just saying that as comforting and excellent of a place susans is, were not transitioning to pass from behind our computer. of course no person in the whole world wants to look unseemly and unattractive but the reality is no matter what you look like, you have to be able to function in the real world. EVERYONE HERE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS THE DESIRE TO LIVE AND BE INTERACTED WITH AS THE GENDER YOU KNOW YOURSELF TO BE but being trans is not an excuse to withdraw from a society that doesn't perceive us in the same way we perceive ourselves.

posting four pictures of yourself a day to an online forum looking for people to tell you how pretty you are is equally as obnoxious coming from cisgendered people. i think we all know who these individuals are as opposed to those looking for advice and safety related concerns, so wouldn't the best thing to do be addressing the real concerns and ignoring the narcissists? thanks for listening ladies.. now attack me all you want

The trouble is, I don't think that "do I pass?" is what some people are really asking when they post in such threads. Sometimes, I suspect the question which underpins that is "do you believe I'm a woman?" (or in the case of the guys' threads "do you believe I'm a man?"), and that's why constructive criticism is sometimes taken far more... personally than is ever intended, and also why people are hesitant to give it. It becomes an indentity issue instead of an appearance issue. At least that's my take on it.

Quote from: Sephirah on July 02, 2011, 05:39:35 AM
The trouble is, I don't think that "do I pass?" is what some people are really asking when they post in such threads. Sometimes, I suspect the question which underpins that is "do you believe I'm a woman?" (or in the case of the guys' threads "do you believe I'm a man?"), and that's why constructive criticism is sometimes taken far more... personally than is ever intended, and also why people are hesitant to give it. It becomes an indentity issue instead of an appearance issue. At least that's my take on it.

If those are your pics you certainly do!

I've been thinking the same thing as the topic creator for a while now.  I do check out these threads a few times for inspiration and reminding me that, yes, lots of us can pass. But at the same time, some people just don't plain pass, and then everyone says they pass.  I think everything else that I could say has already been said, though.