From Whence Comes the Transgender Community?
cristan williams

http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/06/29/from-whence-comes-the-transgender-community/

Every so often I have encounters with the TS-not-TG group. I cherish these encounters because they often inspire me to do research. Sometimes transsexuals who argue for the destruction of the transgender community make statements that cause me to question my assumptions – which is a good thing!

I enjoy having my perspective influenced by evidence and when people in the TS-not-TG camp make certain claims about the word "transgender" (eg, crossdressers forced it on transsexuals and therefore transsexuals are victims of a "Borg collective assimilation process") I am inspired to look at what the evidence has to say.

"From whence"?

Yes, Arch "whence".   
As far as I am concerned TG is just an umbrella term for all of us who are somehow gender variant.  The idea of fighting amongst  ourselves is unhelpful to everyone, in the face of the issues confronting us all.

This appears to be an American phenomena from where I stand.
It seems like American society has a greater then normal need to segregate all sorts of groups in an attempt to label, classify, and rank them. 

Stop it! There are tigers in the jungle behind you!

Karen. 

I'm fine with "whence," but "from whence" is redundant.

I don't see why we can't all identify as we wish but understand that some of us use "transgender" as an umbrella term and some don't...and some people want to define other people and some don't.

Perhaps the U.S. is so obsessively taxonomical because we're so heterogeneous.

Or not.

But "from whence" flows better.

Quote from: justmeinoz on July 03, 2011, 02:03:38 AM
But "from whence" flows better.

I don't think it does, but I rarely think incorrect usage sounds better. It's something up with which I do not put.

Technically, "from whence" is redundant because "whence" already means "from where" - but "from whence" has centuries of literary usage behind it (including Dickens and Shakespeare), so it's all good .

I thought I was verbose 'til Christan got on this subject!

I'm not sure the "kill it with facts!!!" approach is going to accomplish the purpose she wants.

Although I'm not neck deep in this battle (ankle deep might be a stretch) i think the passion on both sides is kind of odd. I've seen comments going both ways that I thought were pretty heavily overstated.

I DO like the TS/TG distinction because I do see a logical distinction between gender identity and gender expression

I don't see that as a way to say "my thing is bigger and more important that your thing" - just that it's a different thing, with different needs and concerns.

Just as trans is different than homosexual, just as gay is different than lesbian (if we are supposed to pretend there's no distinction between TS and TG, why are their four letters in LGBT? After all, isn't it true that a bisexual is only rlevant to the situation to the extent that they are, essentially, "sometimes gay"? Yet no one protests that bisexuals are considered distinct from homosexuals)

A lot of it strikes me as a lot more effort expended towards winning an argument than towards so called "progress"

it seems to me that you can make just as much progress by noting the trans community includes both TS (gender identity) and TG (gender expression) people, and each of these have a set of legitimate concerns which sometimes overlap - just as everyone understands that "LGBT" includes both homosexual people and trans people who both have legitimate concerns which sometimes overlap.


I frankly don't get why the "umbrella" TG people get pissy about the TS people who want to make that distinction so long as everyone is willing to work together.

I DO understand the frustration with the (few) "TS not TG" people who basically say "my life is fine and i want no part of your agenda" - not saying those folks are not entitled but at least the frustration is somewhat rational.

what i do know from my own experience is this - when I talk to cis people who are sympathetic to me, or at least willing to listen, I do NOT want to have them assume that what is going on in my life is the same thing as what is going on for the fetishistic crossdresser or the drag queen. I'm not going to dis or demean the CD, but I think it's right and proper that i say to the questioning person "there deal is not my deal and vice versa"

I can do that without saying I refuse to work with others TG people who are not TS.

History demonstrates that when people are divided, they crumble and fall.

I think we've managed to put up a pretty good fight against those claiming religious justification. I also believe that the defense against those who wave children around has been pretty effective. The medical community has come a long way, in the past year, for example, the UK health aithoritires said that it was acceptable to perscribe pubatry blockers.

But now we are faced with an onslaught we cannot win, against ourselves. More specifically, by those that seek to divorce themselves from everyone else on the basis that their aims are somehow more pure, more truthful, more coragious. Let's cut to the chase here. Superior.

I am still not quite sure how transsexuals seek to differentiate themselves from the mortals of this world. I do know, by any of the current definations, I will be excluded, consigned to the lesser group, transgender. Or should that be Only Transgender?

The long term damage this is going to do, and it will, make no mistake, could destroy almost every achievement we've collectively made so far.

Now there is a good argument to suggest that the Sex crowd may be being duped by outside forces, in much the same way that the feminists, for example, have been hijacked by nazis. We're not suppose to mention this sort of thing, it ushers in the rather predictable claims of paranoia. Sadly, that little notion is more a feature of opposition than comprehension. To suggest that opponents do not influtrate is to claim, for example, that every woman who has ever expressed support for feminism, automatically thinks all men are rapists and little girls are encouraged to have sex with their fathers.

But history has also demonstrated that, when these sort of divisions emerge, then, after breifly attempting to point out the errors, (invariably dismissed by the superior minds of the seperatists), it's best to let them go.

I have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted. I wish them well, but frankly, believe they are in for a very rude shock when they discover that they will need to spend the remainder of their lives as second class citiziens, labeled with the transsexual badge.

Bye bye.

Quote from: spacial on July 03, 2011, 06:33:01 AM
I have to say, I find the attitude of the Sex group distasteful, stupid, self centred and short sighted. I wish them well, but frankly, believe they are in for a very rude shock when they discover that they will need to spend the remainder of their lives as second class citiziens, labeled with the transsexual badge.

Bye bye.

oh puh-leez.  I dare say that the vast majority of those of us who are post-operative are NOT living as second-class citizens.  And many of us live life just fine without society as a collective whole knowing about our previous treatment for a birth defect. 

I would further concur with, I believe it was Val's post in another thread, that some of the pre-ops and non-ops would have a vastly different viewpoint if they were post-operative.   If that makes us come across as displaying a sense of superiority, then so be it.  But it DOES put us squarely in the realm of reality as opposed to discussions of the theoretical world where some can only guess about the life of the post-op. 

I was suggesting that, those that seek to separate themselves from the transgender community by adopting transsexual are making a serious mistake. It was certainly not directed at all post op people or even, dare I say it, the majority.

How you choose to position yourself is a matter for you.

The objective must be, self expression. If the objective is getting an op, by any means, including acting according to a script, handed down from on high, then I wish those who are prepared to accept that, well.

If, as a consequence of subjecting themselves to that, they then believe they are somehow superior to the rest of us, then, as I suggested, please don't bang the door as they leave.

I will contine to support all of my brothers and sisters in Transgender in their struggel for the absolute right of self expression. Which is the only rational, long term objective, however each choose to express that.

Quote from: spacial on July 03, 2011, 09:19:06 AM
I was suggesting that, those that seek to separate themselves from the transgender community by adopting transsexual are making a serious mistake. It was certainly not directed at all post op people or even, dare I say it, the majority.

How you choose to position yourself is a matter for you.

And yet in the first paragraph, you tell me that the very manner in which I position myself is a "serious mistake." I don't know how that can NOT be taken as being directed to myself and others in my position...

QuoteThe objective must be, self expression. If the objective is getting an op, by any means, including acting according to a script, handed down from on high, then I wish those who are prepared to accept that, well.

No, the objective was NOT self-expression.  It always was about congruence and fixing a disconnect that had resulted from an error of birth.  And those that have no surgical track in mind will probably never grasp that element of having been born with a transsexual medical condition nor will they EVER understand why some of us want nothing to do with the umbrella concepts. 

QuoteIf, as a consequence of subjecting themselves to that, they then believe they are somehow superior to the rest of us, then, as I suggested, please don't bang the door as they leave.

yeah, no marginalization of MY beliefs (or those of others in my position) through a statement like that...after all, you have already inferred that our beliefs are taken as a statement of superiority rather than simply accepting them at face value that YOUR issues as a pre/non-op are more often than not going to be different than MY issues as a person who had a medical condition treated many years ago and simply prefer to live in a binary world.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, can we please try to keep it civil?

I offer sincere apologies to all who may have felt uncomfortable by anything I've written or who thought they were on the spot over it.

I suppose our little community has to change, over time. New emphasis, new priorities.

I've noticed an increasing distance between some people and others and confess, I found it quite unsettling.

But I'm sure we all change in time and I have done as well.

Hopefully, in time, those who have sponsored this approach can say more.

For my part, I promise to make a lot more effort to keep my own empotional responses under control.

Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 03:07:37 AM
Technically, "from whence" is redundant because "whence" already means "from where" - but "from whence" has centuries of literary usage behind it (including Dickens and Shakespeare), so it's all good .

Hey, as long as people don't write "for awhile," I'll just live with it.

I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" .

[this is waaay more fun than arguing about gender labels ]

Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" .

[this is waaay more fun than arguing about gender labels ]

be careful or I may have to toss out a dose of usurpation and other such terms as appeared in the Declaration of Independence...

Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
I'm still having therapy for the first time I was subjected to "irregardless" .

Now, don't go getting all pre-Madonna on me...

We're going way off topic, we'd better tow the line .

Quote from: Padma on July 03, 2011, 03:14:40 PM
We're going way off topic, we'd better tow the line .

>>>SMACK<<<

Okay, you're right. I'll stop.

I don't understand why folks are so invested in categorizing other folks in ways that the other folks don't want. There's a big difference between "I see you this way" and "You ARE this way because I say so, regardless of what you actually think."