Monks teach maleness to Thai 'ladyboys'

By Janesara Fugal (AFP) – 8 hours ago

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jtidB8oq-otugyBvmRQ0cPpL3tzg?docId=CNG.85dd3468c38ddd2a33b111209b8647f1.521

CHIANG KHONG, Thailand — The 15-year-old aspiring "ladyboy" delicately applied a puff of talcum powder to his nose -- an act of rebellion at the Thai Buddhist temple where he is learning to "be a man".

"They have rules here that novice monks cannot use powder, make-up, or perfume, cannot run around and be girlish," said Pipop Thanajindawong, who was sent to Wat Kreung Tai Wittaya, in Chiang Khong on the Thai-Laos border, to tame his more feminine traits.

Ugh, they sound like my mom.

Kia Ora.
Here's an insight into the five precepts[rules of personal conduct] set down by the Buddha for "lay" Buddhist to follow...

The Precepts
The precepts are a condensed form of Buddhist ethical practice. They are often compared with the ten commandments of Christianity, however, the precepts are different in two respects: First, they are to be taken as recommendations, not commandments. This means the individual is encouraged to use his/her own intelligence to apply these rules in the best possible way. Second, it is the spirit of the precepts -not the text- that counts, hence, the guidelines for ethical conduct must be seen in the larger context of the Eightfold Path.

The first five precepts are mandatory for every Buddhist, although the fifth precept is often not observed, because it bans the consumption of alcohol. Precepts no. six to ten are laid out for those in preparation for monastic life and for devoted lay people unattached to families. The eight precepts put together number eight and nine and omit the tenth. Lay people may observe the eight precepts on Buddhist festival days. Ordained Theravada monks undertake no less than 227 precepts, which are not listed here.

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...

1.   ...harming living beings.
2.   ...taking things not freely given.
3.   ...sexual misconduct.
4.   ...false speech.
5.   ...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
6.   ...taking untimely meals.
7.   ...dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime.
8.   ...use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment.
9.   ...use of high seats.
10.   ...accepting gold or silver.
(adapted from The Word of the Buddha, Niyamatolika, The Buddhist Publication Society, 1971, p xii)

The above phrasing of the precepts is very concise and leaves much open to interpretation. One might ask, for example, what exactly constitutes false speech, what are untimely meals, what constitutes sexual misconduct, or whether a glass of wine causes heedlessness. And, the grotesque mime watching of the seventh precept sounds perhaps a bit outdated. The Buddhist master Thich Nath Hanh has formulated The Five Mindfulness Trainings, which are an adaptation of the first five Buddhist precepts. These are practised by Buddhists of the Lam Te Dhyana school. By virtue of their sensible phrasing and their relevance to modern lifestyle, these "trainings" provide a valuable foundation of ethics for all of humanity.

The Five Mindfulness Trainings
(according to Thich Nath Hanh, www.plumvillage.org)

-First Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I am committed to cultivating compassion and learning ways to protect the lives of people, animals, plants, and minerals. I am determined not to kill, not to let others kill, and not to condone any act of killing in the world, in my thinking, and in my way of life.

-Second Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by exploitation, social injustice, stealing, and oppression, I am committed to cultivate loving kindness and learn ways to work for the well-being of people, animals, plants, and minerals. I am committed to practice generosity by sharing my time, energy, and material resources with those who are in real need. I am determined not to steal and not to possess anything that should belong to others. I will respect the property of others, but I will prevent others from profiting from human suffering or the suffering of other species on Earth.

-Third Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I am committed to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct.

-Fourth Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I am committed to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticise or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.

-Fifth Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I am committed to cultivate good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family, and my society by practising mindful eating, drinking, and consuming. I am committed to ingest only items that preserve peace, well-being, and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and society. I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films, and conversations. I am aware that to damage my body or my consciousness with these poisons is to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society, and future generations. I will work to transform violence, fear, anger, and confusion in myself and in society by practising a diet for myself and for society. I understand that a proper diet is crucial for self-transformation and for the transformation of society.


The bottom line is that there's really no black or white answer... Some Buddhists are more or less accepting of trans-people, but there is no single across-the-board answer[cultural background/upbringing can and does play a part]. But overall, Buddhism [because of the five precepts] is more accepting of gay and transgender people than most of the other religions.

Metta Zenda

The problem with Bhudism like every other faith/belief system is that there is a set code of rules/ethics/mores that are preordained by anouther.
Morality comes from outside. Not inside.
Only by developing our own morality can we find enlightenment. No code of conduct or laws can make a person moral. Only by being true to self and fulfilling the role that you have chosen for your self can you be true to self. The opinions of others should be of low priority to anyone.
That which is profane for one person must of course be holy for anouther. There is no universal morality.

(imho)

Like Zenda says, "cultural background/upbringing can and does play a part". A problem that has happened with Buddhism is that it tends to assimilate mores of the cultures it grows in - so for example in a homophobic culture (such as Tibet), Buddhism becomes institutionally a little homophobic. And so on.

The fundamental principle of Buddhism is non-harm, which means that in principle whatever brings about happiness (something different from pleasure) and freedom is ethical, and whatever brings about suffering is unethical. So Buddhism sees sex itself as being ethically neutral (regardless of gender or orientation, so long as it is truly consensual) - it is the attachment it tends to create that causes suffering (you know what that's like if you've ever been hurt in love, or been jealous, or...). Gender and sexual orientation are not ethical issues.

And then you get the countries that Buddhism took root in, who have their own set of moralities around gender and sexual orientation, and that gets glued on top of the real stuff, and people suffer as a consequence, which is a damn shame.

but gender variance is not sexual conduct! There is nothing "sexual" about it! the ->-bleeped-<- is this!? Bending of rules?

Sorry, guys, I think I agree with Muffin on this one. 

Gender (at least how I see it) isn't a sexual thing.  There's a huge difference between sex (whether it be talking about chromosomes, or the action of) and gender.   

Kia Ora,

Sadly Muffin, some[but by no means all] Buddhists tend to view homosexuality as "sexual misconduct "[it would seem it's a cultural upbringing thing] ... And in Thailand the term  "Kathoey" [ladyboys] can stand for either transgender[women] or very effeminate "gay" males...Some trans-women prior to transitioning are very feminine in their behaviour, mannerism and speech, but their bodies are not very feminine, [just like very "effeminate" gay males-especially those who like dressing in drag] this can make it quite hard to actually tell the difference between the two...In this sense the West is no different...

But you're right some Buddhists will bend these "precepts" to suit their own prejudices...The five precepts are open to interpretation and it's up to the individual to find out what is skilful/wholesome acts and what is not...There's no right or wrong or good or bad just "skilful and unskilful" actions...

Kia Ora Cynthialee,

The precepts are only guide lines for those of us who choose to journey along the Eight Fold Path...

The Buddha said, "My teaching is like the finger pointing to the moon. You should be skillful. You look in the direction of my finger, and you can see the moon. If you take my finger to be the moon, you will never see the moon !"  The Buddhadharma is not the truth it's only an instrument for one to get to the truth...

I hope this give you a bit more "insight" into what Buddhism is about...Part of which [a big part] is exploring what we perceive as the "self "...

Metta Zenda 

the article doesn't mention anything about sexual acts or sexual orientation? Just gender expression? I only skimmed through it could of missed that bit.

You have a point, Muffin. (The following was a thinking-out-loud early in the morning kind of deal...)

As an ordained Buddhist, I have mostly experienced support from my fellow Buddhists (of whatever gender) - but the few who are uncomfortable with me transitioning tend to hide their own discomfort behind Buddhist "principles" to do with contentment in general, not sexual issues. That is, they say "you should practise being content with what you are." To which I reply, "I have been, this is why I'm making changes in order to better be 'what I am' instead of continuing to try to 'pass' as male, which is deceitful." This is all just game-playing, of course - I know these people are just masking prejudices. I'm glad there are so few of them, but that's what seems to be going on in Thailand.

Oh, it just occurs to me that what's also an issue for monks/nuns is that they don't just practise the five precepts, they have monastic precepts which include such things as not wearing makeup/perfume - I think the idea is that it's assumed you're dolling yourself up in order to attract others (which makes it harder for them to be content) and to get attention (which is shoring up your ego). It's a weird business - there is clearly a mix of genuine ethical concerns and cultural judgements in the application of these principles as "rules". Something I'm still learning is that the point of having training principles (which is what the Buddhist precepts are), instead of commandments/rules, is that you are forced to be aware enough to have to figure out how they apply in different circumstances, instead of falling back on "it says this and it always means this."

There's more: in a culture such as Thailand where the monks/nuns are supported financially by the lay people, there is always going to be pressure (spoken or unspoken) to conform with what the social norm is, out of fear of losing that support. So I imagine part of the impetus for the Wat trying to de-trans their monks is because the local laity are not comfortable with trans people (if it's not simply a case of prejudice on the part of the monk running the Wat). This is a problem that's endemic to monastic communities that can't support themselves - the need for approval from the laity means it's harder to challenge prejudice and local beliefs.

And finally... in culturally Buddhist countries like Thailand and Sri Lanka, there's a general thing of boys becoming monks for a year or two as part of their upbringing (it's like a gap year before college) - so the boys and young men becoming monks are not necessarily there out of a personal desire for the monastic lifestyle; they may just be there because it's expected of them. I'm not sure why I'm mentioning this, it's just that it's part of the picture.

Still the entire idea of the precepts says that Bhudda knows the way to enlightenment and not the individual.

No two paths are the same. The idea that there anyone can assist anouther on the way to enlightenment is a serious exercise in ego. IHMO

Kia Ora Cynthialee,

I have no wish to reinvent the wheel so............................................

Quote:

The Buddhist doctrine of egolessness seems to be a bit confusing to westerners. I think this is because there is some confusion as to what is meant by ego. Ego, in the Buddhist sense, is quite different from the Freudian ego. The Buddhist ego is a collection of mental events classified into five categories, called skandhas[aggregates], loosely translated as bundles, or heaps. [ 1 Form – 2 Sensation- 3 Perception- 4 Mental Formation- 5 Consciousness]
If we were to borrow a western expression, we could say that "in the beginning" things were going along quite well. At some point, however, there was a loss of confidence in the way things were going. There was a kind of primordial panic which produced confusion about what was happening. Rather than acknowledging this loss of confidence, there was an identification with the panic and confusion. Ego began to form. This is known as the first skandha, the skandha of form.

After the identification with confusion, ego begins to explore how it feels about the formation of this experience. If we like the experience, we try to draw it in. If we dislike it, we try to push it away, or destroy it. If we feel neutral about it, we just ignore it. The way we feel about the experience is called the skandha of form; what we try to do about it is known as the skandha of impulse/perception.

The next stage is to try to identify, or label the experience. If we can put it into a category, we can manipulate it better. Then we would have a whole bag of tricks to use on it. This is the skandha of concept [mental formation]. The final step in the birth of ego, is called the skandha of consciousness. Ego begins to churn thoughts and emotions around and around. This makes ego feel solid and real. The churning around and around is called samsara. The way ego feels about its situation (skandha of feeling –(sensation) determines which of the six realms of existence it creates for itself.

End of Quote...

How a person chooses to see things is up to them...And if they find comfort and contentment through their beliefs, then I'm truly happy for them..If not then I can only wish them all the best on their journey of "self" discovery...After all it's an "individual" thing ! 

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda

That some religion seems 'cool' or 'hip' at the moment doesn't change that it's a religion, and just like all religions it's about control.

Quote from: tekla on July 18, 2011, 04:26:50 PM
That some religion seems 'cool' or 'hip' at the moment doesn't change that it's a religion, and just like all religions it's about control.

Quote from: Padma on July 18, 2011, 02:13:40 AM
As an ordained Buddhist, I have mostly experienced support from my fellow Buddhists (of whatever gender) - but the few who are uncomfortable with me transitioning tend to hide their own discomfort behind Buddhist "principles" to do with contentment in general, not sexual issues. That is, they say "you should practise being content with what you are." To which I reply, "I have been, this is why I'm making changes in order to better be 'what I am' instead of continuing to try to 'pass' as male, which is deceitful."

Padma nails the issue; your gender is in your head not in your genitals. We know now this to be a medical fact. It never cease to amaze me that my genders is located in a piece of my brain the size of small grain of rice.


I found that all religion have denominations that seem to be more "evolve" and "enlightend" than other.So it seems that whether you are Jewish, Christian, Budhist, or Muslim, the ignorant and bigot always make their point by interpreting their "commandments" to fit their self-righteous views. I wander what is the situation in mostly atheist China?

Kate D

Kia Ora Tekla & Cynthialee,

"How a person chooses to see things is up to them...And if they find comfort and contentment through their beliefs, then I'm truly happy for them..If not then I can only wish them all the best on their journey of "self" discovery...After all it's an "individual" thing !" 

Happy Mindfulness

Metta Zenda

Quote from: kate durcal on July 18, 2011, 05:28:56 PM
I wonder what is the situation in mostly atheist China?

Kate D

Kia Ora Kate,

Quote :

China may be surpassing the U.S. in its tolerance and acceptance of transgender people, TransGriot author Monica Roberts reports for Racialicious.  With an estimated transgender community of 400,000, the Chinese government has adopted policies that grant transgender citizens civil rights under the law, allow them to change their identification cards, and legally recognize their marriages after sex reassignment surgery.  Roberts cites popular Chinese transsexual public figures like Jin Xing and Chen Lili as helping to open up public attitudes.  Jin is a former colonel in the Chinese army who is now an internationally acclaimed ballet dancer, while Chen was the first transgender contestant to win the Miss China Universe pageant in 2004 before being banned from participating in the international competition.

Read more: http://www.utne.com/Politics/Chinas-Progressive-Attitude-Toward-Transgender-Community.aspx#ixzz1SWzJiWEn

Metta Zenda

I have realised lately that I have always been sick of old men (well, it's nearly always old men) telling the rest of society what to do.  It is really starting to irritate me now.

Karen.

After all it's an "individual" thing !" 

I'm sure glad you used quotes there, because that let's your readers know your really not telling the truth.  Which in this case is that religion, far from being individualistic is the totally collective, there are no individualistic religions, by definition religion is about a group belief.

Religion may be a group mindset, but it is interpreted individually.   No two people believe exactly the same way.  Because belief is founded inside the individual (whether it be influenced by outsiders or not) it is an individual spiritual experience.

You can do the motions and 'pretend' to believe anything you want, but no one, I repeat, NO ONE can tell you how to believe in your own heart.  No matter what anyone says or does to you, you are in control of that, because belief is internal, not external.