Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 28, 2011, 01:24:36 PM


How about the fact that some of us who were of transsexual history simply do not feel we have anything of significance in common with those who fall under the rest of the 'transgender' umbrella, and as a result, want NOTHING to do with the umbrella.  Any issues I *might* have from a legislative standpoint have next to nothing to do with the non-surgical tracked person.  I was opposed to the consolidation when I first heard Frye and others trying to make it a much more common terminology issue twenty or so years ago and I remain as firmly opposed to the notion now...

But hey, why let something like that get in the way of casting aspersions for being vocal in my beliefs on the matter...

This is what I don't get.

Why do some people get so mad about it?

People are going to group people into things no matter what. That's like saying you don't want people to think you're emo when you dye your hair black because you're really goth. People don't know the damn difference and think what they want anyway. If you don't want to get grouped with the wrong thing that is your job to show them that YOU as a PERSON is different by being yourself. Labels are for generalizations anyway.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 28, 2011, 01:24:36 PM
being vocal in my beliefs on the matter...

And how vocal; barely three days go by when there isn't an article or opinion piece stating what a millstone, how awkward, how embaressing, how wrong, how irritating, how ugly, how strange or how unnatural people like me are.

Oh, and Da Monkey - yours is one of the best signatures I have read in ages.

when it comes to fighting about which label is better, it really is pointless and fruitless.

There are so many pros and cons about either label that you can argue for centuries and you will never come to an agreement...no matter how passionate you think your label is.

For example

Transsexual
Pros:
1.Widely used medical term in the US
2.Can be seen as a separate label distinctive from the umbrella term of Transgender

Cons:
1.People associate it with being sexually attracted to a trans or have some type of sexual meaning behind it.
2.One does not transition sexually as it is a gender issue.
3.Can have the connotation of being in the same group as "homosexual" "Heterosexual" "BiSexual"

Transgender
Pros:
1.There is no connotation behind anything sexual behind the label as the label suggests "crossing genders"
2. It is the widely used medical term in the United Kingdom

Cons:
1. Those who say they were the other gender since they could remember do not like transgender since they never crossed genders as they always felt the gender they were suppose to be
2. It is the word associated with the entire umbrella and can be confused for one distinct part of it.

Really, I could go on forever but these are a few examples of how the label issue will NEVER be resolved. So it is best if we just have the maturity to not attack someone else for using a different label than ourselves.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 28, 2011, 01:54:58 PM
And how vocal; barely three days go by when there isn't an article or opinion piece stating what a millstone, how awkward, how embaressing, how wrong, how irritating, how ugly, how strange or how unnatural people like me are.

Pica, I find you absolutely adorable!

Stay as you are!

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 28, 2011, 01:54:58 PM
Oh, and Da Monkey - yours is one of the best signatures I have read in ages.

Hahahahah yeah from American Dad. I love Roger.

And Annah: that's a very good idea. I don't know why people want to hold on to a word so badly.

Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 01:47:08 PM
I remain as firmly opposed to the notion now

She says...

On a sight clearly labeled 'transgender'...

hmmmm...

gee...and posting in a section labeled as "transsexual talk."

hmmmm...

Annah,
When I first came out and joined the local trans comunity it was me and a bunch of transguys. They are pretty mellow and laid back, certainly not getting as involved in identity politics as trans women get.

Mainly they seem focused on being guys.

Quote from: cynthialee on July 28, 2011, 02:04:05 PM
Annah,
When I first came out and joined the local trans comunity it was me and a bunch of transguys. They are pretty mellow and laid back, certainly not getting as involved in identity politics as trans women get.

Mainly they seem focused on being guys.

Yeah.

Sadly people are screaming at their labels than just being the women they are. The whole argument is just plain silly to me!

Someone can scream "I AM TRANSSEXUAL/TRANSGENDER AND THE LABEL OF TRANSGENDER/TRANSSEXUAL LABEL IS WRONG" tell they are blue in the face or until hell freezes over. At the end of the day, the labels are just that. Labels.

Quote from: Da Monkey on July 28, 2011, 01:52:12 PM
This is what I don't get.

Why do some people get so mad about it?

I have a transsexual history.  I do NOT have a transgender history.  I abhor having MY right to define my history usurped and co-opted by activists who want to redefine that history and who seek to create a conglomerate umbrella.  I never asked for my history to be placed under an umbrella term that does not apply to me and that incorporates individuals who are making lifestyle decisions that do not accurately reflect my medical history.

And while labels may only be for "generalizations anyway," I still hold the right to have the CORRECT generalization utilized...and that right is not something that I should lose even though I tend to more closely identify with the label of lesbian than anything else (and have since my early teens, roughly 30 years ago).

Hahah yeah eh.

I remember at my old job a woman came up to me and said "I think it's great what you and [other FTM] are doing." I was like "yeah..?" and she said "yeah I love all homosexuals, I don't see a problem with it at all."

I just laughed and said yuuupp.. I wasn't going to correct her. You can already tell she'll never understand the difference anyway.

The problem lies with the fact that people generally find it objectionable when someone trys to force an identity on them, which is what most militant activist types try and do.

Quote from: Annah on July 28, 2011, 01:16:09 PM

I found in my observations that transmen really don't get riled up as much as transwomen do. Do you find that to be the case with the FTM community?

I've noticed this too. I won't presume to speak for other guys. But I think part of it may be that we don't have another group we're mistaken for. There aren't really women crossdressers or part timers. At least they're not recognized by the public as such. So, we don't have this need to differentiate ourselves from some other group. I suppose we're often confused with butch lesbians but it seems they get more riled up about that than we do.

Also, so many trans men don't get bottom surgery that it's not much of  a divisive factor among us. Most of us seem to recognize that whether another guy has surgery or not is a personal decision with no reflection on us or ftms as a group. I find that ftms tend to take more issue with the actions and behavior of fellow ftms than what they do with their bodies. At least that's what I've noticed with myself.

Quote from: Forum Admin on July 28, 2011, 02:15:55 PM
I've noticed this too. I won't presume to speak for other guys. But I think part of it may be that we don't have another group we're mistaken for. There aren't really women crossdressers or part timers. At least they're not recognized by the public as such. So, we don't have this need to differentiate ourselves from some other group. I suppose we're often confused with butch lesbians but it seems they get more riled up about that than we do.

Also, so many trans men don't get bottom surgery that it's not much of  a divisive factor among us. Most of us seem to recognize that whether another guy has surgery or not is a personal decision with no reflection on us or ftms as a group. I find that ftms tend to take more issue with the actions and behavior of fellow ftms than what they do with their bodies. At least that's what I've noticed with myself.

Since you choose not to speak for me, I'll just repeat it since you said it so well.

Quote from: cynthialee on July 28, 2011, 12:28:48 PM
What group did I miss?

The "I'm a woman, not a trans-anything" group.

Quote from: Neko on July 28, 2011, 02:12:23 PM
The problem lies with the fact that people generally find it objectionable when someone trys to force an identity on them, which is what most militant activist types try and do.

But it's a transgender umbrella, not a transgender rainmac.



Each of these people are under the umbrella, none of them are compromising who they are, none of them are having a new identity forced onto them for being under the umbrella, but each of them get to stay dry.

Quote from: Padma on July 28, 2011, 01:19:58 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 28, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
I don't think there is a single group on the planet in any arena or area who get riled like transwomen do.

*cough* feminists *cough*

I'm afraid I belong to both of those categories, and I only get riled by people who try to exclude each other.

Quote from: Da Monkey on July 28, 2011, 01:52:12 PM
This is what I don't get.
Why do some people get so mad about it?

I suppose for the same reason as the loudest homophobes. They somehow feel their identity threatened by someone who made different coming-out choices than they did.
Case in point:

Quote
I have a transsexual history.  I do NOT have a transgender history.  I abhor having MY right to define my history usurped and co-opted by activists who want to redefine that history and who seek to create a conglomerate umbrella.  I never asked for my history to be placed under an umbrella term that does not apply to me and that incorporates individuals who are making lifestyle decisions that do not accurately reflect my medical history.

According to Susan Stryker's book Transgender History, sex is anatomical and gender is cultural. Transsexual would be used in reference to a person who is transitioning from one sex to another and transgender would describe a person who crosses the gender norms of their society. Gender norms are often pinned on people according to their sex.

Taking these definitions, I am both a transgender and transsexual person.

For the most part I can't say I have seen allot of people drafting others into definitions they don't agree with.

I have seen a number of folks jump up and start asserting that they are not this or that when someone else identifies as whatever it is.

Fine your not an 'insert variable'. Someone else is and it doesn't chalenge or invalidate your identification as 'insert variable'.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 28, 2011, 02:42:57 PM
*cough* feminists *cough*


I'm afraid I belong to both of those categories, and I only get riled by people who try to exclude each other.
I suppose for the same reason as the loudest homophobes. They somehow feel their identity threatened by someone who made different coming-out choices than they did.
Case in point:

sad isn't it

Cynthia, you forgot two groups, the AFNR (Angry For No Reason) and the NAAA (Not Angry At All) I belong to the latter!