Quote from: Korlee on August 10, 2011, 09:26:43 AMI mean in my experience most men that still have their lil bit of skin have no idea how to care for it.  They just assume that a simple bath/shower cleans it or that it is spiffy after a whole day of work.  When the fact is... it is far more bleck that way.  So even if it is for -religious- reasons?  Unless you can teach a large chunk of men to finally care for it... cut it just so they get a blow then maybe further down the road over ruining the partners desire...

well if there was no circumcision, then we would be teaching men/boy how to care for it.  Just like how we teach kids how to properly wash their hands after they use the toilet, or how to brush their teeth.  I mean, we wouldn't pull their teeth out just so they don't have to worry about cleaning them properly.
And so the only reason men don't know how to clean it properly (assuming that is true) is because they are circumcised.   If they weren't, they would have been taught, and it would be a no-issue.

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 12:38:31 PM
Nygeel
* "non-neo-vagina" could mean a AMAB (assigned male at birth) bits *

No it wouldn't, because then a "non-neo-anything" would then just mean the same (AMAB), which it doesn't. That is FALSE in terms of logic.

Next, and we still sharing... for some reason most everyone and his uncle uses the term vagina and meaning more likely vagina, and vulva with clitoris. Why?
I guess it just so happened, gets too long to be specific. Actually who really cares, I ask?

Also it gets real long again because we do not (MtF) only get a neo-vagina after SRS but OF COURSE also a neo-vulva and neo-clitoris. But nobody ever uses those terms at all.
And to boot we also get a neo-clitoris and NOBODY uses that term either. So?

Then there's a bio-female, genetic-female also.
That would imply that bio-female be also an insult?? Really?
Again that be a new one for me.

We mostly refer to bio-female as GG = Genetic Girl and Trans-Female as TG Trans Girl.
Both terms are perfectly fine and I never heard this to be insulting either.
And so BTW trans man... at least on our side of the "fence".

So, is Bio-female OK?
If it is I still don't quite get your issue that started this dialogue.

See what you can tell,
Axelle
PS: Why not just call all that stuff what it is and not go through all these convolutions? If I be said to have a bio-penis right now by an (FtM), I guess that be true. And I REALLY have a hard time to feel offended. But then it could be that's just me --- I don't know.

I understand what you are trying to say but we're not talking about the vagina and most FTMs don't want to be reminded of it. Personally I don't really care but I think in this conversation it matters because it's about the clitoris. The clitoris and the shaft of the penis are made up of the same glans.

"The clitoris is formed from the same tissues that would have become the glans and upper shaft of a penis if the embryo had been exposed to "male" hormones"

And many of us who are on testosterone now experience growth in it. With that, why would we want to call any part of that a vagina?

Also the term bio here will be argued too, it's phrased as cis instead. so cisgendered woman or ciswoman etc.

I actually don't remember if I was circumcised or not before my transition its now so long ago since I had my penis removed 26years ago, I don't think I was but strangely I don't have any memory of it ether way, never thought about.
But I do know my hubby is, he has no foreskin and is shape at the head like a big mushroom lol I think its better hygiene particular from my point of view as a woman's if he wants oral, he was circumcised when he was a child he tolded me.

Quote from: JohnAlex on August 10, 2011, 02:12:52 PM
well if there was no circumcision, then we would be teaching men/boy how to care for it.  Just like how we teach kids how to properly wash their hands after they use the toilet, or how to brush their teeth.  I mean, we wouldn't pull their teeth out just so they don't have to worry about cleaning them properly.
And so the only reason men don't know how to clean it properly (assuming that is true) is because they are circumcised.   If they weren't, they would have been taught, and it would be a no-issue.

Well with how easy it is to find knowledge in this day and age there is really a lack of any good excuse not to know if they went the other route.  Plus heck even my dad knew how 'n' such -I asked after my first mens locker room experience about differences.- and he came from a small town family in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma.  The knowledge on how to clean ones self is pretty basic as well for every parent -Clean every crevice on your body with soap.-  and if you can't get the knowledge from that to clean under a flap of skin?  Then they probably just don't care about being clean clean.  Heck, I've read erotic fiction that even talked about cleaning under there for some reason.

The knowledge is wide spread and generally someone not clean just lacks a care in the first place.  So still going with what I said because alot of men have proven the inability to clean there.  Ya, I know and not from staring.

I have no religious reasons to be circumcised. Hell, even if I were part of a religion that had it as the norm, I'd keep my foreskin. I'm sure God doesn't care if I masturbate. After all, that whole "man in god's image" implies to me that God jerks off, too. But, not religious or even vaguely spiritual, so. XD

There's no reasons, really, so unless my doctor were to go, "OHMYGOD YOU'RE GONNA DIE OF X IF WE DON'T CUT IT." and it were serious, then I'd have no choice.

But personally, I think cut dicks look blucky, so I would keep it.
Don't FTM dicks (meto/clit enlargement) have foreskins? Can those be cut? o_0

I'd prefer to be cut. Its easier to clean.

Quote from: Silas on August 10, 2011, 08:06:36 PM
But personally, I think cut dicks look blucky, so I would keep it.
Don't FTM dicks (meto/clit enlargement) have foreskins? Can those be cut? o_0

Hmm, they probably could but I mean, after all the hell we go through just to have a body part that resembles more of a penis, why bother with more surgery? But, we all have our own preferences I guess. O.o

If I had a penis, I'd be uncut. I don't know why, I know most people prefer it uncut, but whatever.

I know I'd be uncut since my brother is as well :'P. I want my sons left uncircumcised as well when I have 'em. My boyfriend wants 'em circumcised like him XP. We will continue this battle until the day we get a kid @_@.

Quote from: Mr.Rainey on August 10, 2011, 08:43:13 PM
I'd prefer to be cut. Its easier to clean.

Yes it is...but please, everyone, let your child decide for himself when he's old enough.

Had I been born physically male I would have been circumcised, which I know without a doubt from hearing conversations on the subject before my nephew was born.

Personally, I'd prefer to be natural for many of the reasons listed, and I suppose the way some would look at it I am now. If I ever manage to have kids (i.e. I marry and my partner wants kids, though it won't be by me) then I'd prefer to not go the circumcision route if there is a son/physical male born.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 10, 2011, 09:34:42 PM
Yes it is...but please, everyone, let your child decide for himself when he's old enough.

I agree fully with this. There are occasionally legitimate medical reasons for circumcision (for example, I've heard of the foreskin being too tight and requiring circumcision), but barring anything of the such I personally don't feel this is a decision that someone should make for someone else -- parent or not.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 10, 2011, 09:34:42 PM
Yes it is...but please, everyone, let your child decide for himself when he's old enough.

Its incredibly painful, they have to keep it really, really clean while it heals and most of all they um can't "touch" it.  Show me a boy old enough to make that decision for themselves that can live with those rules (especially the last one). 

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 10, 2011, 09:34:42 PM
Yes it is...but please, everyone, let your child decide for himself when he's old enough.

Or herself...or hirself or themselves


Also, part of my issue with circumcising young people who cannot consent is that it's done without any sort of anesthetic!

Hell Im a transgirl I HATE MY PENIS!!!!!! But I still wish I had my foreskin!

Actually you can make a good insult out of being circumcised;

You are the only person I know that had to have their face circumcised. But it only works on those that know what a circumcision is. 

I'm confused as to how personal hygiene can be ... confusing? Not a whole lot to it, just push the skin back all the way, wash, rinse, done. Not exactly brain surgery.

I'm not for circumcision actually. I've gotten into some debates about it with others with penises. Some say that it's better to be cut, that there's less that can "go wrong". Yes, you can get infections (not talking STDs here, other infections) and things can happen where your skin doesn't retract the whole way or it's too tight and that might actually cause some issues where you'd want to have some sort of corrective surgery done. I just look at it like, well, you're born with it so it serves a purpose and I think the owner of the penis should be the one to decide whether they want to deal with it or not - not their parents or some doctor.

I don't have a fully developed foreskin. It's kind of half there, but it doesn't really cause me any problems so I don't think I'd ever want to cut it off. If I ever had a son I wouldn't have him circumcised.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 10, 2011, 10:32:32 PM
Yes, you can get infections (not talking STDs here, other infections) and things can happen where your skin doesn't retract the whole way or it's too tight and that might actually cause some issues where you'd want to have some sort of corrective surgery done. I just look at it like, well, you're born with it so it serves a purpose and I think the owner of the penis should be the one to decide whether they want to deal with it or not - not their parents or some doctor.

This basically puts into words some of my thoughts on the matter.

I would have been circumsized, as my brothers are. I would prefer it that way too. I find it more aesthetically pleasing, and easier to keep clean. Plus I tend to be really squeamish with body parts, and pulling it back to clean would just gross me out, I'm sure. But I've heard that circumcision is way more common in the US than in other countries, so maybe I also like it better because I'm more used to it.

I would want to be uncut for the... masturbatory advantage. And because if you're
born with it, what in God's name possessed anyone to cut it off in the first place??

If you teach a kid from when he's little to wash his penis, do you really think a boy will object to that? The only reason men don't thoroughly wash up is because they never got into the habit of it. I'm against circumcision, at least on babies/children. I never would have it done, in my opinion it is just as disgusting as female circumcision. Also I don't understand why anyone in  their right mind (who likes having a penis) would want to take a knife to it.

I do have a penis, it is circumsized, and I never for a minute felt like I'm "not in my right mind." Although I could be mistaken about that!