Quote from: RyanThomas on August 13, 2011, 04:55:41 PM
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

his terminology applies to transwomen, so replace estrogen with testosterone, etc. types five and six are what im referring to, as the harry benjamin school of thought says true transsexuals desire surgery.

Thanks for the link.  Perhaps you should check out the more (but not universally) accepted DSM-IV criteria from Gender Identity Disorder.

I must caution you though; be really careful about using the term "true transsexual" or using a scale for someone's gender identity.  I won't get into it here because it's a tender subject and not the purpose of this thread.  Use the search function here or google to see arguments against the usage of that term.

Quote from: Adio on August 13, 2011, 05:06:08 PM
Thanks for the link.  Perhaps you should check out the more (but not universally) accepted DSM-IV criteria from Gender Identity Disorder.

I must caution you though; be really careful about using the term "true transsexual" or using a scale for someone's gender identity.  I won't get into it here because it's a tender subject and not the purpose of this thread.  Use the search function here or google to see arguments against the usage of that term.

I am well aware of both the DSM-IV criteria (that label us as mentally ill) and the "tenderness of the subject". it's not my term and I am not implying that anyone is a fake transsexual. I don't care how trans you are, what's in your pants, or what you do with it, but be cautioned that doctors are sometimes uncomfortable treating those that fall outside the guidelines.

Quote from: justmeinoz on August 13, 2011, 06:41:06 AM
As they say; if it walks like duck, and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.

If you identify as male, and being considered as female causes you distress, then that's a fair enough description of GID.  The state of your genitalia is a different question, simply making you non-op, which given the state of the medical art for FtM, is a reasonable position.

If you were a cis-male and lost your penis in an accident you would still be considered male. 

Karen.

^ This

That thing I have gives me sexual dysphoria, but otherwise I don't really care about it.

I don't think it makes you any less of a man. Many of the guys here have said this, but it's simply an issue of what your dysphoria is. For me, I have a pretty natural male appearance (pre-T), and my chest doesn't cause me particular distress because it's small enough that light binding or semi-loose (don't even have to be baggy) shirts get rid of them, and I give myself the positive, at least they're not going to be any hassle come top surgery. But for me, that whole lower area, just doesn't fit. I use a 3-in-1, I just feel more comfortable with it than without. For me, with my particular dysphoria, the "hassle" is worth it. As for surgery, I'd like it, if it improves. And in the end, if it's to gain the proper gender status on my ID, I'll go with the surgery that has the least involved, and leaves me most open to possible improved future surgery, in order to make a legal transition.

But that's me. Not you. Many women feel the need to have their breasts remodeled after losing one or both to breast cancer. But some are fine without. Some cis-guys have gynecomastia, many feel the need to have reparative surgery, but some don't. I think we should look at this in a similar way.

Theres nothing that says you have to want certain things to be deemed anything. Considering the lack of real progress in the art that is FtM bottom surgery its not all that surprising really. To each their own on what they do and don't want to do to make them most comfortable in their own skins.

As for the gay community being focused around the penis, not always so but yes quite often that is true. I've been with my partner since March '09. Hes gay and has no issues with my lack of certain parts. Its made him more open and comfortable with other experiences.

I agree with everyone here in that if you identify as male, and you were born with a female body, you're transgender. The specifics don't matter that much; a lot is personal preference.

I mean, when I first discovered I was trans, I didn't care that much about having penis. I didn't want any female parts, but I didn't have any major desire to have a penis. Nowadays I find myself wanting one, but being asexual, the only point in having one is for myself (meaning that no one else will see it).

It's all a matter of personal preference. You may find that you want a penis later, you may not. It's different for everyone. But don't be doubtful of yourself just because of that.

Quote from: dmx on August 14, 2011, 02:03:51 AM
A big factor is your reasons for not wanting one.

If a penis itself isn't something you want, I'd say it borders on making you 'less male' to be honest.
If you don't want the ->-bleeped-<-ty one produced by FTM bottom surgery because of it's (lack of) quality and the cost then that's a different story.

THIS! That's why I said earlier "ignore the fact that the surgery is unrealistic". To say that you don't want to "settle" for an FTM penis, for lack of a better term, is just being someone that's coping well with a bad situation. To say that you don't really want a penis period raises some serious questions on my part. Again, I'll say, have you ever met a non-transwoman male who "didn't really care" whether he had a penis or not?

I assume my view on this issue comes from the fact that I find society's fixation on the penis (and other sexualized body parts) to be stupid. I like to point out to people that if a cis man loses his penis, do we not still consider him a man? The best answer to that people have come up with is "it's different in that case", even though it really isn't. To me being trans is a physical birth defect; I was born with an incorrectly formed body surgery fixes this in some cases, but it's fairly limited with the genitals. If I could have a "normal" penis, I would definitely take it, but I believe that the other parts of my body that don't match are far more distressful. I am okay with my genitals because at least they work. It's a penis to me, and society's rigid ideas of what makes men and what makes women is stupid, since it prevents people from being who they are. Given the options I have, I would prefer to have an unaltered but functioning set of genitals than to surgically modify it and potentially lose use of those parts.

Well Elijah ,sounds like a lot of cis-men judging by the way they behave-    "I have my own flesh, which acts a lot like a penis, just smaller"

It's a pity that transplantation technology hasn't progressed to the point where we could just do a swap,  V for P, and vice versa.    If it was possible I'd be at the head of the queue to give mine away.

Karen. 

  I don't want a vagina either at this time.  I still don't have any animosity with my jewels either!  Give me a few more months, I may go total female and really change my mind!  Light, You are still transgendered if your mind and heart says so!
  Joelene

OK I'm not sure if this has been touched upon, but I think its worth considering...

My understanding 'transgendered' persons live more in the grey area - some surgery, no surgery, T, no T, take T and stop after a while etc etc - a mixture if you will, choosing to live somewhere along the gender spectrum. "... many of those identifying themselves as transgendered or gender-bending or gender-blending persons are attracted to the concept of a constructed gender and see themselves and their lives as evidence of it... Eschewing any strict male-female dichotomy, transgendered persons instead reach for a wide range of mixtures of male and female restructured anatomies and manifest masculine and feminine lifestyles".  Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity", self-identification as woman, man, neither or both, not matching one's "assigned sex", identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex.

In comparison to "transsexuals, who I believe are intersexed, have the body and genitals of one sex and the brain of the other making reconciliation of their sexual and gender identities problematic. They solve their problems of reconciling, their disparate sexual identity and gender identity, by saying, in essence, 'don't change my mind; change my body'" Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. These terms are NOT interchangeable.

If you were to say to me 'am I transsexual if I don't want a penis?' - I would say that is unlikely, nearly impossible. The better questions for you OP is were you accurate in labelling yourself 'transgendered' which my answer would be - absolutely you can still be transgendered and not want a dick. If you were meaning to refer to yourself as 'transsexual' - then no I really don't think you can. Or is it the case like others have said, were you referring to the current variations of penis modern medicine can create for us?? In which case again - I don't entirely blame you for not wanting one!

Remember absolutely no judgement here mate, I personally have always felt something missing for me and yep that's a dick (amongst other things!). I am a man, with a transsexual past and while I can appreciate not everyone is going to 'fit the definition' and I accept your right to feel the way you do - I think we, well at least I, am just trying to understand here brother!!

j.

Quote from: Aussie Jay on August 14, 2011, 06:22:59 AM
OK I'm not sure if this has been touched upon, but I think its worth considering...

My understanding 'transgendered' persons live more in the grey area - some surgery, no surgery, T, no T, take T and stop after a while etc etc - a mixture if you will, choosing to live somewhere along the gender spectrum. "... many of those identifying themselves as transgendered or gender-bending or gender-blending persons are attracted to the concept of a constructed gender and see themselves and their lives as evidence of it... Eschewing any strict male-female dichotomy, transgendered persons instead reach for a wide range of mixtures of male and female restructured anatomies and manifest masculine and feminine lifestyles".  Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity", self-identification as woman, man, neither or both, not matching one's "assigned sex", identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex.

In comparison to "transsexuals, who I believe are intersexed, have the body and genitals of one sex and the brain of the other making reconciliation of their sexual and gender identities problematic. They solve their problems of reconciling, their disparate sexual identity and gender identity, by saying, in essence, 'don't change my mind; change my body'" Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. These terms are NOT interchangeable.

If you were to say to me 'am I transsexual if I don't want a penis?' - I would say that is unlikely, nearly impossible. The better questions for you OP is were you accurate in labelling yourself 'transgendered' which my answer would be - absolutely you can still be transgendered and not want a dick. If you were meaning to refer to yourself as 'transsexual' - then no I really don't think you can. Or is it the case like others have said, were you referring to the current variations of penis modern medicine can create for us?? In which case again - I don't entirely blame you for not wanting one!

Remember absolutely no judgement here mate, I personally have always felt something missing for me and yep that's a dick (amongst other things!). I am a man, with a transsexual past and while I can appreciate not everyone is going to 'fit the definition' and I accept your right to feel the way you do - I think we, well at least I, am just trying to understand here brother!!

j.

Mentally I don't feel female at all, I want a change my body, get rid of my breasts, uterus, female looking hips,
pass as male, grow facial hair and muscle on T, it's just that for some reason I don't
feel bothered by the fact of not having a penis. I don't feel like I'm living in a grey area either, I'm a GUY.

It's terribly confusing for me as well    but I've read a previous poster say they treat their enlarged clitoris as their penis, well ever since I learned that the clitoris and penis are homologous organs I've been treating my clit as a penis equivalent as well.
Maybe it's why I don't feel I'm missing anything ...

Anyway, when it comes to changing my body I don't feel that anything that isn't me would help me to get rid of my dysphoria. No kind of cosmetic surgery or prosthetics or fake facial hair etc... just changes from T. My own body changing into a male body (and me removing female bits I feel uncomfortable with)

The only reason I would suggest eventually removing your female bits, at least on the inside, is for medical reasons. Don't count me as an expert or anything, I'm not even on T yet. But I've done a lot of reading up on it and one of the concerns is if you intend to stay on T or just be on it for as long as it takes to get the permanent changes. If you intend to stay on T, I would highly recommend eventually removing your uterus and ovaries. I've read multiple sources stating that post-T, even after menses has ceased, the uterus will often continue to build up small amounts of tissue. While this is fine short term, in the long run in can cause a lot of health problems if not removed.
So that's one thing to consider. But removing those bits won't make your clit function any differently.

I think its is completely okay to not want a penis, I am transgendered and I do not want a penis either.  I think I will be happy with what T will give me down there once I get on it.  Plus I think the surgery right now still needs a lot of improvements.  I also kinda think penises are ugly :/

Quote from: hexr on August 14, 2011, 02:40:14 AM
I assume my view on this issue comes from the fact that I find society's fixation on the penis (and other sexualized body parts) to be stupid. I like to point out to people that if a cis man loses his penis, do we not still consider him a man?

Yes!  This is something I think about a lot...and yeah, ppl never have a real good explanation for that diff 

The debate going on is why I have a personal problem with labels. If someone wants to label themselves of their own free will, that's fine. If someone has to use a label in order to get the medical treatment they need I personally feel that's screwed up, but it's a means to an end. But when someone is trying to fit themselves into a label because they feel they have to, that can definitely cause confusion. Also, in my case,  psychologists slapping various labels on me in my teens did nothing but screw up my head.

So my own advice is don't feel you have to have a label all the time to "identify" yourself. Also, realize that if you do want to get medical treatment, you will need to jump through hoops and accept the psychologist's definition - and their definition IS that you have a "disorder". Whatever path you take, just strive to be yourself.

Aside from the convenience of being able to easily pee just about anywhere, a penis would serve no practical purpose for me, so I don't particularly 'want' one, either. I really have no use for male or female genitalia. That being said, I would still prefer male organs over female ones, but I'd be quite satisfied having none at all.

So, for me, basically:
vagina = undesirable
penis = indifferent
neutral = indifferent

I don't consider myself any less male because of it. It just means I don't require bottom surgery, nor do I feel the need to wear a packer.

Upon first read of your OP, clearly I got the wrong impression that you wouldn't want a penis at all! So I think I get it now - you DO want a penis, just one that is yours (and you have that and it will be more apparent on T lol!) and not the packer or man made ones that are available now and that's awesome! Just seems you're able to accept what you have a lot easier than some other guys.. I knew a couple of guyswho started transition packing, never missing a day, didn't feel whole etc and one day woke up and didn't need to anymore.. Just had an epiphany where they grew comfortable with what they had..

Which far as I can tell is the whole point of transitioning - to feel at home in your own skin

What AussieJay said  It's your body, and it's your choice , and at the end of the day, feeling comfortable in your own skin is the most important thing- it doesn't matter if you entirely fit the traditional transsexual definitions or not. To me, people labels are like food labels - you might have 2 jars that both say "peanut butter", but it's not exactly the same stuff in each jar!  (I hope that slightly weird metaphor makes sense!)