Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
You wish to de-segregate bathrooms. Good luck with that.

I believe in equal rights of gender expression that isn't just afforded to an elite minority of a sub group.

Back in the 70s and 80s people said the same against us (transsexuals)"good luck with that."

But I am a big believer in human rights and the ability of progression when it comes to basic human rights.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 12:04:02 PM

I disagree with that. I was never a crossdresser in my life, I never had an interest in clothing and crossdressing, I just never did it. I didnt crossdress until I transitioned. There was no graduation. I am binary identified and have always been.

OK this is interesting. At what point did you self ID as being a woman or did you discover your gender is female but you body is male? You say you have always been binary so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?

And I have no doubt that you never cross dressed or showed any part of your true gender until you could be stealth about it. But just because YOU didn't cross dress before you transitioned doesn't mean that many others didn't started out cross dressing and then figured out there is more to it than just the clothes.


And no I am not painting all post-ops as people who fight against other people's human rights. Just you and a few others here are doing this and all are post-op.

Oh, the doors came off the stalls not out of safety concerns but due to Big Brothers continuing effort to try to prove they didn't lose the war on drugs some twenty, thirty, forty years ago.  The clubs were very safe, the kind of people who go to those kind of events are not the fighting gang-bangers (or even worse, the suburban wantabe gangsters), or rednecks but the ravers/burners/gay dance scene/ClubKids.  Really, when was the last time anyone who you thought of as being threatening was in a car/truck blasting some Paul Oakenfold or Sasha and Digweed?  Never?  Sounds right.  The 'unsafe' people tend to like hip-hop, heavy metal, or country and western.  On a personal safety level I can't think of anyone less threatening to other people than some E-tard tripping balls on Ecstasy or Special K.

Of course drug use has not seemed to drop one iota, but we're all a lot more comfortable peeing in front of each other.   Law of unexpected consequences I guess.  Of course a lot of the dancers are wearing not much beyond their bra and panties in the first place so modesty wasn't an issue to begin with.

Now, this is a very rarefied atmosphere and about as far from 'the general public' as you can get.

And the way things are going in the world, you're going to be damn lucky to have a pot to piss in at all, forget segregating it.

I can't stand people who ask for equality (as long as it benefits them)... There are places in the US that do not have segregated bathrooms and there are not more problems there then any other place has, a criminal will be a criminal and so it becomes an issue of perceived safety not actual safety. There was a saying during the civil rights movement, "Separate is not equal".

I also can't stand the elitist attitude of a lot of people that are not "gender conforming". your not better then anyone else just because you had the ability to come out have surgery and be done with it, some of us have to struggle through several awkward stages to get to the same place you are now. so I shouldn't be able to use the women's room simple because I have a penis? but I am a woman...

Bottom line I don't really care who uses what bathroom (as many women feel perfectly fine using the men's room if there is a line for the women's), as long as your there for the intended purpose... any argument to the contrary is hate mongering in my eyes. Now perverts are a whole separate discussion and having a sign that says "Women's" is not going to stop them, and that's just the truth of the matter.

I don't mind which restroom someone uses as long as they don't harass anyone and don't wreck the place.

It would be hard (and morally wrong, IMO) to exclude male identified CD/TV without also causing problems for female identified TG/TS.  How is one going to know a stranger's gender identity in a public restroom without rudely questioning them?  If someone just needs a restroom to use and isn't causing problems it shouldn't matter what the sign on the door says.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?

Yes, my body and sex was male, hence male to female. I'm not ashamed to say it, it was the circumstance of my birth. Why are we arguing semantics of transsexuality? There is such a thing known as MtF and FtM, and they mean exactly that. Male to Female. There is nothing for any of us to be ashamed of. It isnt our fault we were born this way.

But just because YOU didn't cross dress before you transitioned doesn't mean that many others didn't started out cross dressing and then figured out there is more to it than just the clothes.

I was referring to Annah's assumptions that all transsexuals start out as crossdressers. (her reference to the difference between the two is 3 years)

I can't stand people...
I also can't stand the elitist attitude...

As a reminder, please keep the posts about the topic itself and your own views pertaining to it and not direct slams against people that have opposing views. It tends to cause others to not want to post for fear of being slammed likewise.

but I am a woman...

Then use the women's restroom dear.

Valerie

p.s. I try hard in my posts to keep my comments and opinions in the first person about myself and my views and not about other peoples opinions, views or life choices, out of respect. I use the word me and I, trying not to attack other people. We are a diverse group and all views are valid and welcome.

Not trying to slam anyone, my issue is not with you. My issue is with communities that segregate themselves from each other and then bash the other groups. it's high school all over again. I started as a cross dresser before I discovered what it was I was really feeling, and even now most people see me as a drag queen. All I am saying as TS/TG/CD/ or whatever other initials anyone wants to put in this list, who cares? as long as they are using the restroom/ changing room/ where ever for it's intended purpose, why make issue? How is someone going to know I'm TS and not a CD or a Drag queen? If all I wanna do is relive myself why shouldn't I?

I'm going to have to drag Marlo Thomas out of retirement and have her make Free To Pee, You and Me.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 11:55:59 PM
when it comes to transvestites, who do not identify as the opposite sex, which restroom should be used if and/or when in public? Same question for crossdressers?

Not to interupt, well OK, to interupt, but a quick review of the original post shows a rather narrow question. We have drifted a bit far afield here. Guilty as self-charged undoubtedly, but we got into "yeah but if someone's lipstick is a little bold, their eyelashes too extreme and maybe, just maybe their genitals don't match our qualifications for admitance to our private club, er, restroom, some mythical observer may be prepared to be offended." And as we all know, people who are easily offended are too easily encountered.

I guess, to me if I encounter someone in the women's room that might appear not up to my gender standards, I ask myself, "are they there for the purpose intended for the room, or possibly for personal perversion satisfaction. It happens, but I've never seen it. But then, I try to avoid restrooms with questionable atmosphere as a matter of human safety, not just sexual safety. If they pee, they belong; if they spend the time looking me up-and-down, they don't. Nor do I.

Susan Kay

Quote from: Stephe on August 28, 2011, 12:32:01 PM

OK this is interesting. At what point did you self ID as being a woman or did you discover your gender is female but you body is male? You say you have always been binary so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?

I realize this was directed at Valerie, but remember a lot of us ID in different ways. As far as I'm concerned I was never male, because my brain was always physically female. I had aspects to my body that are not traditionally female that I wanted corrected (and some still needing to be corrected), but the control system remains the same. To put it bluntly, cutting off a guy's penis does not make him female, any more than cutting off mine will. And ya, I'm binary as all hell, obviously.

It's part of the reason I find the conversation a bit bizarre. You want to worry about men using women's washrooms? Go harass the trans guys who aren't out yet.

Marlo Thomas is retired?

Susan Kay

I believe TV & CD's should use the restroom congruent with their sex
and not their presentation BECAUSE they do not identify as the opposite sex..... This opinion
Does not have a f'ing thing to do with being post op!!
When it comes to anti-discrimination legislation, TV & CD's should be permitted to
express themselves in the way they dress.....
Oh, and Anna, I never crossdressed either before going fulltime.
Certain members on here need to stop attacking other members because
our opinions differ!!!

Marlo Thomas is retired?

At first I was going to write 'dig up Marlo Thomas' but I checked and she's not dead yet.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 12:04:02 PM
You have made a few references I would like to respond to before closing.

You are making the assumption that transsexual people start as crossdressers then graduate to transsexual status.

I disagree with that. I was never a crossdresser in my life, I never had an interest in clothing and crossdressing, I just never did it. I didnt crossdress until I transitioned. There was no graduation. I am binary identified and have always been.

*This is directed at those who believe that Crossdressers should not have the right to use the bathroom and it is not directed at any one person.

Many many many many crossdressers realize they are transsexuals after they do it for awhile. For some its pretty instantaneous. For others it takes years. Furthermore, what they call "crossdressing" may well be an unconscious desire to fit into their female persona and it isn't until they realize they are transsexual that they begin to understand they weren't crossdressing but, rather, they were dressing to be themselves.  You are in no moral authority to dictate to any crossdresser who is or who is not who they claim to be. I still stand behind my comment that the majority of many crossdressers realize that after some time, their gender fluidity is a lot more complicated than putting on a dress.  When I mean complicated I mean this:

I knew I was a girl since I was four. However I know some trans girls who didn't feel that way until they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and so one. Who am I to question their sincerity of gender expression?

Also, I loved presenting as male. I have three beautiful children from it. If I had a time machine, I would do it all over again. Many trans, if taken the chance, would redo their gender expression at puberty. Either way is correct and to judge one over the other is not a good idea.

When do you consider its ok for someone to pee in the bathroom? Do you need to here them audibly say "I am a woman?" Do they need legal work? Identification to show they have changed their gender status? A letter from a psychologist? Where do you draw the line? What if the crossdresser says she identifies as a woman because she is dressed now but a man when she is dressed as a man? Do you deny the existence of bi gender and gender fluid spectrums? 

Or should they get their own little water fountain in the back too?

Likewise, who are we to tell a Crossdresser how they should act or think?

You should think outside the box and realize that not everyone has the same gender definitions as you. And to deny CDs the right to pee in a gender assigned bathroom of their presentation is just not right. I still stand behind my comments that any trans who deny CDs the right to pee in the bathroom in the gender they present under have some underlying prejudices against the crossdressing community. That, I will not waiver.

I wont even ask what are the opinions concerning gender fluid or bi genders/non genders role and the bathroom scenarios are (directed towards those who believe that a Crossdresser does not have the right to use the bathroom in their gender presentation). I think I would cringe over the opinions given.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
I believe TV & CD's should use the restroom congruent with their sex
and not their presentation BECAUSE they do not identify as the opposite sex.....

And you know they don't identify as the opposite sex because?

The reason people get "attacked" is for statements like the above.

If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 28, 2011, 01:19:05 PM
so did you have a male gender/male body before you transitioned?

Yes, my body and sex was male, hence male to female. I'm not ashamed to say it, it was the circumstance of my birth. Why are we arguing semantics of transsexuality? There is such a thing known as MtF and FtM, and they mean exactly that. Male to Female. There is nothing for any of us to be ashamed of. It isnt our fault we were born this way.

I was born female gender in a male body. There was no point that my gender changed, just my appearance morphed over time. I've read people say things like "I became a woman when they legally put a F on my ID" etc. That sorta thing didn't happen to me. Very little about me other than my appearance has changed. I totally agree that this is nothing to be ashamed of, not sure everyone here actually feels that way, but that is drifting off topic.


Back on topic, it got to a point where people would stop me when I tried to go to the mens room. I think that's kinda a clue that I was using the wrong one. I'm not sure I would fit into your rules on defining someone as a woman but there are people out there who would question if any MTF is really a woman. I guess I'm shocked seeing that sort of judgmental attitude coming from people who themselves have had gender issues.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual

Based on this logic it is impossible for a Crossdresser to really be a transsexual.

The DSM-IV never states a CD could never be a trans and it also states the recognition of gender fluidity.

And I am sure you will say "you never ever have cross dressed in your entire life before you transitioned either."  Well, there is a reason for this.....what you had originally thought of crossdressing you now realized you were dressing to your gender identification.  To an outsider who isn't trans or knows very little about trans, you and I are just as much as a crossdresser as the ones you are denying bathroom rights to.

This is why I cannot stand labels. It gives people a foothold over others and it gives strengths to prejudice and bigotry.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual

So who labeled them a cross dresser? Given many have never been to therapy, how do you know they wouldn't be labeled a transsexual officially? Do you know that this person who appears to "be a crossdresser" isn't actually a TS tracked for surgery in 4 months?

Do you think people should be required to carry a letter from a therapist before they enter this sacred ground to pee?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 28, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
If they truly were "transsexual" they wouldn't be transvestites or crossdressers. If they did identify as the opposite sex, they wouldn't be labeled as transvestites or crossdressers now would they per what is being taught in psych, abnormal psych, human sexuality, child growth and development courses as well as what is in the DSM-IV manual

This seems rather circular to me. Quite a lot of TS gals are labeled by others as CD or man-in-a-dress, for bathroom purposes.

Folks, please be careful in this thread. So far, I see a lot of dissent, which is fine. Please continue to keep it reasonably civil, speak from the first person, and avoid pointing fingers at other members (ooh, that came out wrong...)

Moral Panic.  This is a constant in how our culture responds to new things that potentially could significantly impact how society works, and it is almost always played out with using fear of possible vulnerabilities of women and children to regulate access to these new ideas and technology.

When we started to electrify homes there was this idea that predators will be able to tell if you were home.  They'd be able to see the women and children inside and these predators that were supposedly lurking everywhere would attack.

When passenger trains were first being introduced there was an opinion out there that women's bodies were not designed to go at 50 miles an hour.  Their uteruses would fly out of their bodies.  Really.

For many years after the internet was launched there was a fear that it would serve as the perfect interface for sexual predators to find and seduce children.  In reality, years later, still, as before, the person most likely to sexually assault children is somebody that knows them in real life.  Family and friends, etc.

If a gay couple raised a child, that child will surely grow up to be homosexual.

I'm just pointing out that this happens, predictably.  I'm not taking a side really.  I mean at least not with the sides that people within our community take on this issue.  I think those people outside our community using the "politics of pee" to push-back against trans people would have me use the men's restroom, which would be humiliating for me.  That isn't to mention that having somebody looking like me go into that space would be uncomfortable for everybody involved.  So I do take a strong stance against that.

Also, for the argument that is going on within our community, I would just ask that if you take a strong stand that you be sure to look with empathy at how the people on the other side of the argument feel and make sure to ask yourself how you would handle them fairly.

The idea that all crossdressers are all burly men in skirts that can handle themselves if their "fetish" gets them into trouble is probably not correct or fair on many levels.  Where would you have androgynes go to the restroom?  On the other side, should somebody that doesn't identify as a woman be allowed to invade women's spaces?  Should somebody that hasn't had bottom surgery be allowed to be naked in a locker room with the sex they identify as?  If not, what about FTMs?  Bottom surgery is something they often elect against due to the limits of current technology.

Just make sure to consider all views with empathy for everybody is all I'm asking.  Try not to view outliers as exemplifying the norm from either group.  The extreme people are the loudest and their ridiculous arguments often drive the discourse, and that isn't fair.  Anyway, I don't think there is one right answer to this debate, really, but there are plenty of wrong answers.  Let's not get focused on those.