Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on October 07, 2005, 11:32:43 AM
On another note, I'm not sure how your legal system works in the U.S. but if you know that he has robbed other banks and has not been caught for them, aren't you supposed to notify the authorities, else you are aiding and abetting a criminal?

Interesting and very sobering point.  I would definitely recommend looking into that.

devi-

Quote from: gina_taylor on October 06, 2005, 03:38:44 PM
I honestly think that I cna change him into a better person once he's back into society and we can live a good life together.

My experience that although support can definitely help someone grow into a better person, it is ultimately on their own strength that they must find that path.  I have seen far too many people think that by being there for a person who is lost, they can somehow help find them find their path when in the end, the person trying to help is only dragged down into the other person's chaos.

... but I know... we must all take our path.

I hope yours is a positive one... no matter what happens.

devi-

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on October 07, 2005, 11:32:43 AM
On another note, I'm not sure how your legal system works in the U.S. but if you know that he has robbed other banks and has not been caught for them, aren't you supposed to notify the authorities, else you are aiding and abetting a criminal?

First of all... I am by no means a lawyer, but I feel this might be a good starting point for research of anyone interested in finding out more about what "aiding and abetting" means in the legal system.

"A person charged with aiding and abetting or accessory is usually not present when the crime itself is committed, but he or she has knowledge of the crime before or after the fact, and may assist in its commission through advice, actions, or financial support."

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/aiding_abetting_accessory.html

devi-

I don't think mere knowledge of a crime constitutes aiding and abetting; a more positive action to assist is required.

Dennis

Having been told by someone even if they are the person who alledgedly committed the crime is heresay, and as such inadmissable. Unless of course it comes in the form of a confession either to a priest, attorney, or police. Then you get into a whole nother set of caveats. I don't think Gina can get into trouble because he told her he has robbed other banks, only if she has knowledge that he is going to rob a bank and he commits the act. After that you get into the deffinitions of aiding and abetting as Devi pointed out.

Cassie

In Canada, admissions by the accused to anyone are admissible in court as evidence and not excluded under the hearsay rule. If someone else told you what the accused did, that is hearsay.

Dennis

I've been following this thread with interest and concern.

I'd like to comment on two points.

In an earlier post Gina said "I honestly think that I cna change him into a better person once he's back into society and we can live a good life together...."

I honestly believe that we cannot change another person.  People may change, but change takes place because they have chosen to change.  I think the idea of being able to change other people could be one of the biggest reasons marriages don't survive - one spouse thinks he/she can change the other spouse into their image of the ideal mate.

There was also discussion about the responsibility you have to your children when you see them about to make what you view as a big mistake.  While you cannot stop any child who is not physically under your control from doing somethine that could harm them, physicalls and/or mentally, I think you have an obligation to tell them when you think they are making a mistake and then be able to backup your thoughts with legitimate reasoning and facts.

Anne

He is serving a good amount of time for the robbery.  Problem is you don't serve that much time for ONE robbery.  They caught him for THIS one, then charged him with others.

Gina, you're not dumb.  You are adding litte bits and pieces to this story everytime you post.  Things that you know are going to keep us going.  I think you are loving the attention this is getting and are just baiting us.  Tell us the whole story in one swoop and let's move on.

Sorry girls, I shoot from the hip and call it like I see it.  Don't mean to offend.

Alright, I've been on both sides of this fence, and I'm going to comment using my personal experiences. If anyone wants to further discuss my experiences for any reason, please send me a PM or an e-mail and I'll gladly oblige any sincere inquiries/comments as honestly and openly as I can,whether we are in agreement or not.  This is Gina's post & she's the main concern here, so I don't think it's fair for this thread to get wrapped up with too much ado over my experience.

Gina, dear soul....  in late '96 I answered an ad from a Death Row inmate looking for pen pals.  At the time I was in NJ and he in Florida.  I told him up front that I didn't want romance & he agreed, and so we wrote back and forth, sharing thoughts, life experiences, and so forth.  He never pretended to be innocent and he told me how to find details of his case online, which I did.  And it is ugly and to this day turns my stomach to read it or think about it.  He's appealing his death sentence and at the time there was a greater chance that he might be released; that chance is even slimmer now.

Fast forward to '99... I shocked Marc with the declaration that I was in love with him--and I was.  We met later that year and spent 3 days, 6 hours each, together.  A few months later, I had moved to Florida to be near him and we visited once weekly and continued writing.  In November of 2000, we married in the prison, legally.  

Marc and I are going to be getting divorced.  Now before anyone tells Gina "I told you so", listen further.  I've been to Death Row many times in the past several years.  Marc is a beautiful person, and I've met plenty of other beautiful people in prison.  There's absolutely nothing that condones their crimes--the guilty ones, (AKA the majority) have committed atrocious acts against God and humanity.  But I've also seen where grace has shed its light on them.  And I have seen that were I to have walked in their shoes for even a little while, I might have become just as volatile.  I forgot who said this or how the exact quote goes, but there's more to a person than the worst thing they've ever done....

HOWEVER, we are getting divorced, and for a reason.  Over the past few years I have grown tremendously as a person....I actually love myself now.  I see how in the early years Marc filled an emotional void for me, he provided love and acceptance and my confidence boosted as a result.  I've told him the very worst about me and he didn't bat an eye.  

There are big problems to this, Gina.  

First of all, just because Marc is a beautiful person doesn't mean it was meant to be.  There are lots of beautiful people in the world.  Just because he adores me doesn't mean I'm supposed to be married to him.  There are plenty of people who'd hang the moon for me that are otherwise..well, I hate the term but...lowlifes.  

Yes, it feels good to be loved, it feels good to be accepted, but to fall in love with someone because they're 'nice' and they make me feel good is shallow. You don't go around making decisions, especially major life decisions, based solely on emotion!  I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and it'll sound even moreso since I'm a stranger, but there's a lot missing in your story here.

Since when do we put credibility in someone simply because they tell us we can trust them?  He tells you he's honest, and that makes it all OK?  Anyone can talk.  

Gina I've been there...you got a scented candle and 4 pictures....  I've been there...I've gotten the hand-made and the ordered gifts, given not out of Marc's abundance but scraped out of his poverty; we've exchanged HUNDREDS of letters and cards throughout the years.  I understand that he's giving you all he can give right now, and that it's special and endearing and precious to you.  

You've said that things are going 'really well' for you and Tony... I'd like to ask how they can possibly not go well, since your relationship as of this point is one-dimensional.  I've spent hours and hours with Marc, and still there's no way of knowing how well we'd actually get along if we lived together and co-existed in the outside world, with all of its pressures and demands.  

I'm concerned about your comment, Gina, where you said you think you can 'change him into a better person'.   As the others have said, you can't change people, and entering a relationship on that premise is foul play.  I see a different twist on this, though-- if there's a need for you to change him into a better person, what does that say about who he really is?  If you're going to continue in a relationship with him after he's released, you'd do well to be prepared for all his warts---including the ones you plan on changing---ask yourself if you could really live with those things on a day to day basis if it turned out that you couldn't change them.  

On Florida's Death Row, I've met several wives/girlfriends of prisoners.  Most of them..I'd say 98% of them are there under the premise that their loved one is innocent.  I hardly think that out of the 26 inmates that can have visits on any particular day, there are going to be 20-something of them who are innocent...and oh-my-goodness!---all in the same room, what a coincidence!  This speaks volumes about the deception that many prisoners practice, and also about the disillusionment that their loved ones are under.  

I've seen prisoners with controlling natures (I've a keen instinct and have only to watch certain people before I can detect such things) manipulate their girlfriends; I've seen women go overboard for their men only to be dumped... Yes, these things happen on the outisde all the time... but with your man in prison, that's 5 years delay you have before you get to see what he's really like in living color.  A difference between a Death Row prisoner and a gen-pop prisoner is that those in gen-pop know when they're getting out, and need to secure a home before they do.  

I still haven't told you why Marc and I are getting divorced.  When I began to love myself, I realized that I was learning to fly and Marc is still only beginning to crack his shell open.  I started taking classes and seeing life in full color while the prison tugged at my shirt-tails.  I realized that if we had met outside prison walls, I'd never have married him-- I sacrificed my own values and integrity, and accepted certain attitudes and behaviors about him just because he's in prison. And this isn't really about judging---I'm not judging him as a person, I'm saying that as a person and a friend he's wonderful, but for a partner, my standards are higher.  It's about discernment.  

I made a sacred promise to Marc and had to break it, and that hurts us both.  Broken relationships, no matter who is 'at fault', hurt everyone involved.  There's a chance that you might be avery different person in 5 years, Gina.  If you both love each other, prove it before you commit to life together.  Let him be released, find work and learn to support himself in his own place with his own bills without your financial help.  Let him date you.  This is for his own good as much as yours.  If you commit to Tony, and you end up having a transformation such as my own, you might very well end up hurting him in the long run.  True love stands the test of time...if waiting isn't good enough for him, he probably has ulterior motives.  

I know some of my statements have been strong, and I mean you no disrespect or harm.  I do feel very strongly about this precisely because I have been there.  I hope you'll think more objectively about this--think with your head, with rationale...lay your feelings aside for a while.  You're welcome to contact me privately if you need to talk or want to know more, I'm glad to help any way I can.

Everyone I apologize if my thoughts didn't come out cohesively, a bit tired right now...

Valerie  

That is beautiful, Valerie.

As someone who defends criminals and gets to know people who commit criminal acts quite intimately, I can add: they are not "bad" people for the most part. Most of my clients, however, are extremely damaged by their upbringing, by their neurology, or by their own addictions (or a combination of all three). I don't think that the fact that someone has committed a criminal act is a reason to judge them. I do think that in order to commit a criminal act most people are carrying some terrible damage. And no, you can't help them, you can't trust them. You can accept them as people, however flawed they may be, and they can help themselves. Don't bet the farm on it, and if you support someone who means to change too much, you wind up enabling them to not change.

But nobody I've seen changes in jail. They just acquire the means to change and perhaps the catalyst to change. And they can change once they're out. Jail is a highly unnatural, controlled environment. Regardless of someone's best intentions, they are very hard to live up to when you're outside.

So I'll chime in on the skepticism about the relationship. Not because I judge Tony because of what he's done, but because he can't be the person he means to be while he's inside. And the person that you're involved with is the person who is inside. Perhaps he will be able to change when he's out, but you have to be extremely careful not to enable him or support him too much. It has to be his change, not yours.

Anyway, that is beautifully put, Valerie and although your story is sad, it seems you have learned a lot from it.

Dennis

ok honey listen... i am just as worried about you as everyone else. ive been to prison and i live with a sex affender. (he is a very good person and is helping himself to better his problem. nothing violent btw though) and everyone is right if he robbed banks that includes violence, and you have to keep up te violence in prison or become somebody's bitch. pardon my expression. ive have had a few t-girlfriends that has been in the same situation that you have put yourself into and they have either been hospitalized or i have lost them indefinately. please no matter how "honest" or sweet or harmless he seems. he is not what you think. in prisons, if people dont have anyone on the "outs", they will look for anyone they can to talk to and keep talking to them just to try and escape the mental walls that they have to deal with as well as the physical ones within the compound. just please dont take the first fish you catch because of a desperate twitch to say you caught a fish hunny. just because you caught a 15 pound 25 inch trout doesnt mean its going to cook or taste good..... check the lake youre fishing in better for a nuclear waste facility upstream and make sure all containers are sealed.

Quote from: danivamp3435 on October 08, 2005, 02:46:11 PMjust because you caught a 15 pound 25 inch trout doesnt mean its going to cook or taste good..... check the lake youre fishing in better for a nuclear waste facility upstream and make sure all containers are sealed.

not make sence?

Valerie,
When you told your good friends of your love for Marc and desire to move to FL what did they do or say to you?  Anything?

Hi Brenda,

They supported me, but were understandably concerned for me. They worried that Marc would never get out & I'd be miserable.  Mom and Grandma came to the wedding, they both adore Marc.  But Mom misses me terribly, and I her...she still drops hints at me moving back to Jersey, but another big change isn't something I'm ready for right now.     --Valerie

Quote from: danivamp3435 on October 08, 2005, 04:28:40 PM
not make sence?

:')  No... it made sense... just thought it was a funny metaphor. :')

lol oh ok

Hi Leigh,

The lines that I'm talking about are the written lines in his letters.

Thanks for your good point there Steph. Tony has been mad at me during the start of our relationship. Stupid things that I would do that would get him sent to segregation, but it was a learning thing for me, and he forgave me for it. 

I guess it's no different in any part of th eworld with the legal system, but I guess I would be aiding and abetting a criminal if he hasn't been caught for his other crimes, but that's a chance that we're going to take.

Gina

Thanks Danivamp for your heartfelt concern. And Valerie, I read your response with tears in my eyes. You really do understand what I'm going through . I'm really sorry to hear that you're going through a divorse. That is something that Tony and I have discussed and it's something that we won't be encountering. And I do tend  to agree with what Cassie and Dennis say about the fact that I've only heard about the crimes that Tony's done and that I wasn't technically a part of it, so I can't really be aiding and abetting in these crimes.

Gina

Hi Gina,

Glad to see that your reading the responses. You still have plenty of time to think about things before Tony gets out and I think that's good. Just remember we all care about and only want the best for you.

Shelley