The rest room often comes up here on Susan's, and no doubt it will continue to come up as long as there are members here on this board.  My own opinion is that no matter if you are here and identify as TS/CD/TV, Post-op it's a matter of passing in the general public.  If you pass without any problems then there are no problems; go for it, no one will be any the wiser, but as I've said before, do so at your own peril.  Additionally, being Post-op doesn't guarantee  you won't encounter problems as there are those who even being post op still have some difficulty passing in an enclosed environment such as the washroom.

For the general public their situation is simple; men use the mens room and women use the women's room, plain and simple.  I think it would be safe to say that many feel this way about gendered washrooms, no matter what rights have been bestowed on the TG community, and they are going to continue to think this way until the general public changes their opinion, their social upbringing, their moral beliefs etc. and this is something legislation can't do.

Even if you are granted the right to use the washroom of the gender you present as, or identify with, we do ourselves no good by entering such places if we don't pass.  We constantly push out need for our rights and freedoms, but at the same time we need to consider others who we wish to share our lives with.

I know that this may sound harsh but if you don't pass then stay out.

Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 09:56:10 AM
For the general public their situation is simple; men use the mens room and women use the women's room, plain and simple.

But this is premised entirely upon how one defines "men" and "women." There are those who will consider TS women to be men even if some day medicine can grow a uterus and ovaries from our own stem cells and implant them.

Quote
I know that this may sound harsh but if you don't pass then stay out.

I dated a cis woman who didn't always "pass" as a woman; tall, thin, chiseled features. This philosophy that passing is the standard by which your rights become real is beauty privilege and nothing more.

Use what you identify with. Your right to be safe trumps the non-right of everyone feeling comfortable at all times.

Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 10:52:31 AM
But this is premised entirely upon how one defines "men" and "women." There are those who will consider TS women to be men even if some day medicine can grow a uterus and ovaries from our own stem cells and implant them.

No it depends on how the general public defines men and women, not how individuals define them. 

QuoteI dated a cis woman who didn't always "pass" as a woman; tall, thin, chiseled features. This philosophy that passing is the standard by which your rights become real is beauty privilege and nothing more.

Use what you identify with. Your right to be safe trumps the non-right of everyone feeling comfortable at all times.

There are men and women out there who look feminine and masculine it will always be that way, it's something they have to deal with.  They have all the rights naturally assigned to their gender but still it's how they are perceived by the general public were they encounter problems.

Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
No it depends on how the general public defines men and women, not how individuals define them. 

It's not the general public who is a threat; it's one person with a very narrow view of gender who then takes it upon themselves to do something to you.

Quote
There are men and women out there who look feminine and masculine it will always be that way, it's something they have to deal with.  They have all the rights naturally assigned to their gender but still it's how they are perceived by the general public were they encounter problems.

So would you tell such cis people to use the opposite restroom, thus making everyone look at them differently and make entirely different assumptions about them and their sex? Or does this rule only apply to trans people who don't pass?

Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
It's not the general public who is a threat; it's one person with a very narrow view of gender who then takes it upon themselves to do something to you.

So would you tell such cis people to use the opposite restroom, thus making everyone look at them differently and make entirely different assumptions about them and their sex? Or does this rule only apply to trans people who don't pass?

We're not talking about cis people (I hate that word cis) we're talking about those in the TG community.  While cics people may have masculine and feminine feature there is no doubt they are cis.

Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 11:59:33 AM
We're not talking about cis people (I hate that word cis) we're talking about those in the TG community.  While cics people may have masculine and feminine feature there is no doubt they are cis.

The point of saying she didn't pass is that her masculine features often did raise doubts, and if she were to have walked into the men's restroom it would have solidified the image in the minds of anyone who saw her that she was somewhere under the TG umbrella, most likely a trans woman, even though she wasn't at all.

The same thing happens when a trans person uses the restroom of their assigned sex. It undermines them in the minds of others. Their actions are saying, "Yes, I'm really just a femme guy who likes women's clothes," or "Yes, I'm really just a butch chick who likes hanging with the boys." It's the see-I-told-you-so moment for anyone who sees them. Even if they were passing before (but they themselves weren't sure so they used the restroom of their assigned sex), suddenly they're very much not.

I'm not out to desegregate restrooms, but gender policing is harmful all around. The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line, someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.

Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line, someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.

I could not agree more.

Quote from: LifeInNeon on August 29, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
The point of saying she didn't pass is that her masculine features often did raise doubts, and if she were to have walked into the men's restroom it would have solidified the image in the minds of anyone who saw her that she was somewhere under the TG umbrella, most likely a trans woman, even though she wasn't at all.

With all due respect there are a lot of assumptions in your statement, and I expect they are based on hearsay and what has been read or written.  Why on earth would a cis woman walk into a mens restroom, that's just speculation, unless there's a line up at the ladies (which there usually is) which caused her to take advantage.

QuoteThe same thing happens when a trans person uses the restroom of their assigned sex. It undermines them in the minds of others. Their actions are saying, "Yes, I'm really just a femme guy who likes women's clothes," or "Yes, I'm really just a butch chick who likes hanging with the boys." It's the see-I-told-you-so moment for anyone who sees them. Even if they were passing before (but they themselves weren't sure so they used the restroom of their assigned sex), suddenly they're very much not.

Again, this is just speculation, for those who pass then there are no problems, if you don't, use the restroom at your own peril.

QuoteI'm not out to desegregate restrooms, but gender policing is harmful all around. The only person who can truly decide which is the most appropriate one for them is the person themselves because whenever you try to draw a line, someone, cis and trans, ends up on the wrong side of it.

Of course it's up to the individual to decide which washroom to use but don't expect a warm welcome if you don't pass.  There are no gender police to enforce legislation so go ahead take the plunge, just be careful.

I've been using gendered washrooms for years now, started shortly after I began my transition and now 6 years post-op.  I haven't experienced any problems you are portraying except for one instance at a bar:

I had been going to the restroom and on the 3rd time I was stopped by the bouncer who told me there had been complaints, that a customer had said that she didn't think I should be using the Ladies.  I asked the bouncer why they thought that and he said he didn't know other than there had been a complaint.  I kinda guessed what it was about as although I passed pretty good back then I had obviously done something to arouse suspicion.  I showed my drivers license which states that I was female and he let me pass.  Now I am granted rights and freedoms under our Charter of Rights here in Canada so as there were no human rights lawyers waiting in line at the washroom I had defend myself.

I feel we may be doing a hatless jig here, so I'll simply bow to your wisdom and experience.

Just be careful.

There is just as much if not more danger in using the men's room while presenting female. I have personally been assaulted by some very narrow minded people and the fact that other people were around may have been the difference between I bit of bruising and my life. I think I will take a verbal scolding from some ladies over a beating by some bigot any day.

Quote from: missjanealice on August 29, 2011, 04:36:29 PM
There is just as much if not more danger in using the men's room while presenting female. I have personally been assaulted by some very narrow minded people and the fact that other people were around may have been the difference between I bit of bruising and my life. I think I will take a verbal scolding from some ladies over a beating by some bigot any day.

You were certainly lucky to come away with a bruising.  When and where did this happen?  It would be helpful to others in avoiding such situations in the future.

On there other hand my girlfriend and I, along with our hubby's recently attended a Peter Frampton concert at the Molson A Theatre in Toronto, this past July (Fabulous by-the-way) during the intermission the line up for the women's was ridiculous so we both went into the mens - No problem from any one — safety in numbers.

But this is getting a little off topic...

Quote from: Steph on August 29, 2011, 04:50:58 PM
You were certainly lucky to come away with a bruising.  When and where did this happen?  It would be helpful to others in avoiding such situations in the future.

On there other hand my girlfriend and I, along with our hubby's recently attended a Peter Frampton concert at the Molson A Theatre in Toronto, this past July (Fabulous by-the-way) during the intermission the line up for the women's was ridiculous so we both went into the mens - No problem from any one — safety in numbers.

But this is getting a little off topic...

In the middle of the local mall, I doubt that it was avoidable.

When I'm presenting as a woman, I'll use the women's restroom, its just makes sense.