Quote from: Nathan90 on August 28, 2011, 12:52:20 PM
I read/scrolled through most of the thread, then it got off topic and I skipped a part so bear with my if it's already been said.

There's a guy (gay ftm) on Youtube who posted a vlog with a similar question not too long ago. He is married with another ftm, both (I believe) have been on T for a longer time and had top surgery. Also, he lives in Sweden.

Now in Sweden, gay couples are not allowed to adopt kids yet he would love to be a parent one day. Meaning his only option of getting a child would be to get pregnant himself (or move out of the country). I don't have the right answer to it, and I hardly care really 'cause I think each should do it's own. But just my two cents

See, and being as my preference is also toward men, I am okay with having my own child... I feel for those Swedish men though, that is just sad that they can't even adopt just because a country has a specific mindset on same sex couples. I think all that should be required for adoption should be a background check, references, and an evaluation to only rule out being psycho...

yeah it's not as if there's not enough children waiting for parents to go around....... why do they rule out loving, responsible people in favor of letting those poor children rot in orphanages and flawed and abusive foster care systems

And then the foster kids are turned loose at eighteen with the clothes on their back.

It can be legally/socially risky to have your own kid if you're FTM. Look at what Jeatyn went through--and he was pre-transition. So if you can pull it off and are willing to go through it and run the risk, I say do it.

I don't like the fallout FTMs get from the "Thomas Beatie isn't a real man because he's pregnant" crowd--I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now--but it could be that, in the long run, cutting-edge actions like his will help to educate more people and even mess with the binary a little so that it matters less in the future. Who knows?

But, yes, it gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies because I would never choose it for myself.

Quote from: Arch on August 28, 2011, 04:06:39 PM
I don't like the fallout FTMs get from the "Thomas Beatie isn't a real man because he's pregnant" crowd--I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now--but it could be that, in the long run, cutting-edge actions like his will help to educate more people.

I second this almost exactly. I don't mean to offend any of you guys here who are more creative or exploratory with gender expression than I am, but I'm a pretty normal stereotypical guy. I wear cargo shorts and I can't match colors and I'm happier in front of the tv with a beer when football is on than any other time. So just keep that in mind when reading what I'm about to say.

It's a shame that there aren't many normal people to give trans men a good name. Seriously? I mean, for number one, you can count on one hand the number of trans men society has even heard of, Cher's kid being one and Thomas Beatie as the second. They're more in the know than I if there are more....

So that means 50% of general knowledge of trans men comes from someone who was publicly identified as a lesbian for a couple decades and the other 50% comes from someone who had 3 children in his own uterus while sporting a beard. I don't actually have anything against men who first identified as lesbians or men who choose to get pregnant, but I think all of us can agree that these two people have definite potential to confuse such an undereducated society.

This calls into play the debate of "stealth vs out" for the benefit of the community which I would prefer NOT TO BRING UP IN A LENGTHY DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD. I for one am not willing to be as publicly out as some men for the benefit of the community. Call me selfish, call me immature, call me a coward, but that's my decision and mine alone. At the same time, I wish there were more "normal" men to be the faces of the community... I guess that makes me both a hypocrite and a binary-stereotype pusher. Oh well. Life is confusing.

Who is Jeatyn?

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 28, 2011, 04:24:18 PM
Who is Jeatyn?

was that something i said? i've never heard of a person by that name.

I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now

The whole going on welfare deal ain't helping that's for sure.

And to be sure that was Jeatyn's problem too.  If he had not been on public assistance, then the government would not have cared.

I definitely come out on the opposite side as far as Beatie and Chaz. If anything, I think that Chaz and the image he presented to the mainstream were damaging to the trans community because of his own personality and generally blaming T for being sexist and generally acting like an arse, lol. He's kind of what I mean when I talk about guys who try to create women into these "strange beasts" that they want to completely separate themselves from because all they care about is overcompensating as far as their own masculinity. I don't think it's damaging at all that Chaz identified as a lesbian before hand. If society gets "the wrong idea" from that, then it's on society to learn something on their own. I see wanting "normal transguys" as the representatives society sees in the same light as I see the comments about how Pride should be more about showing "normal" lgbtq folks to society. I really don't care much for "normal" and "abnormal." The way I see it, it's society that has to change its views, and it's slowly doing that as generations come and go. I just don't think guys like Beatie or any other transguy that might not look "normal" to society should have to take into consideration some in the community's squeamishness before they do something that affects their own lives and their own bodies. I also think that when we say that Beatie isn't doing "us" any favours, that we also have to realise that we're fairly divided in our community as far as what is and isn't good for us as a community. That Beatie is happy is really all that matters, imo.

On the whole stealth thing, to each their own. The way I view it for myself, I'm not ashamed to be trans and I feel like if I hide the fact that I'm trans then I'm also telling society that there's something wrong with me that needs to be hidden. I guess I just don't care to be a "normal guy" or not. I'd rather be visible to society and remain active within the trans community so that one day society as a whole can send the binary toppling to the ground. I guess I feel like stealth, for me, implies that I need to constantly compare myself to society's view of what cisguys should be as what the "real way" to be a guy is. And coming back to transguys who decide to get pregnant, I guess that's another reason I support them even though I'd never want to do it myself. It just shows society that there are different ways to be a guy; that the stereotypical way is not the be all and end all.

Oh and yeah, I'm also wondering on the Jeatyn thing...I think I've missed something.

Jeatyn was a former member who was a pregnant transman.  He had quite a few troubles including the state wanting to talk away the baby right after it was born.  If I remember correctly.  I'm wondering what happened to him?  I'm sure the baby has been born by now?   I really hope he's okay. 

As to where I fall on this whole topic, it is my personal opinion that I owe people the respect of addressing them as they want to be addressed.  If a person was pregnant and identified as male I wouldn't hesitate.  We could laugh over male pregnancy in fan fiction if he wanted.  If someone with pink pigtails and glitter and dolls and so on wanted to be called Stephen then I would.   

Before I had my daughter I was thinking seriously about transitioning.  Not long after she was born and weaned I started T.  Does that make me a pregnant transperson?  Since I had the thought of transitioning in my head?  I'm not sure why anyone would be against it.  The biological possibilities of my body have nothing to do with the gender of my mind.  I'm not trying to define what it means to be transgender through my own experience.  I'm just living my life the best way I can.

I am happy being stealth now.  If someone asked than I wouldn't deny it but I'm not going to be the one who brings it up.   

Quote from: tekla on August 28, 2011, 04:40:49 PM
I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now

The whole going on welfare deal ain't helping that's for sure.

I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

Plus side of Thomas Beatie: people don't always assume I'm a CD/TV when I say I'm a trans man.

think that Chaz and the image he presented to the mainstream were damaging to the trans community

You ain't seen nothing yet, wait till he gets out and gets fat all over Dancing With the Stars.  The publicity has been 90% negative already (and HIGHLY negative at that), starting with the fact that not only is he not a 'star' he's not even a D-List celebrity.  His attention whoring ways - failed rock band, failed self-appointed 'lesbian' spokesperson - will now succeed at becoming the self-appointed FtM spokesman and he's going to be the big fat face of TransMen everywhere now.  Normally a group seeks out a person for that position because of specific qualities like being sympathetic, being successful, and a having at least base level of physical attractiveness.  Chaz is 0-3 and in the Big Leagues, that's a strike-out.  Really, his last outing before the trans thing was being on Celebrity Fit Club 3 (2006) - that was obviously a whale of a success.

He's the Trans Bristol Palin.  Great.

I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

A Google search for 'Thomas Beatie is on welfare' - highlight the phrase, then right click and choose the option, 'google search' - will yield about a quarter of a million hits.

@Nygeel: Agreed. Even though I've only really told a few people, I feel like maybe having Beatie in the world was a good thing for us in that it made the rest of society more aware.

To be entirely honest, the first time I heard about Beatie I didn't like the thought of a pregnant trans man. But now after I actually put some thought into it, as long as he is happy then what more is there to say? Isn't what we all want from life just that - happiness?

Who are we to deny each other and ourselves the happiness that we deserve?

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 28, 2011, 03:59:24 PM
yeah it's not as if there's not enough children waiting for parents to go around....... why do they rule out loving, responsible people in favor of letting those poor children rot in orphanages and flawed and abusive foster care systems

EXACTLY!

In fact, if you want a HWB (that's a healthy white baby in adoption lingo) from a drug/alcohol free mother, as most people do, there is in fact far fewer babies then people who want them.  However, if your willing to take a non-white baby, or an older child, or one with physical or emotional problems, there are tons of them.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on August 28, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
As to where I fall on this whole topic, it is my personal opinion that I owe people the respect of addressing them as they want to be addressed.  If a person was pregnant and identified as male I wouldn't hesitate.  We could laugh over male pregnancy in fan fiction if he wanted.  If someone with pink pigtails and glitter and dolls and so on wanted to be called Stephen then I would.   

Before I had my daughter I was thinking seriously about transitioning.  Not long after she was born and weaned I started T.  Does that make me a pregnant transperson?  Since I had the thought of transitioning in my head?  I'm not sure why anyone would be against it.  The biological possibilities of my body have nothing to do with the gender of my mind.  I'm not trying to define what it means to be transgender through my own experience.  I'm just living my life the best way I can.

I am happy being stealth now.  If someone asked than I wouldn't deny it but I'm not going to be the one who brings it up.   

thanks for posting squirrel. This is exactly how I feel. I was considering transition before I got pregnant with my son. I put the whole idea on the back burner so we could have a child. The pregnancy was very difficult; I was depressed a lot of the time, feeling very de-masculinized, but I love my son and it was worth it. I wont ever have another child, I couldn't ever do it again. I haven't started T yet, but I've been full time for about a year now. Like squirrel said, I'm just living life exactly how I feel.

Quote from: tekla on August 28, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

A Google search for 'Thomas Beatie is on welfare' - highlight the phrase, then right click and choose the option, 'google search' - will yield about a quarter of a million hits.

Sorry, I forgot to delete my post. I did a Google search right after and found out way more than I ever wanted to know about Thomas Beatie.

found out way more than I ever wanted to know about Thomas Beatie

I'm sure most people feel this way.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on August 28, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
I'm wondering what happened to him?  I'm sure the baby has been born by now?   I really hope he's okay. 

Squirrel- Jeatyn posted a few months back I believe it was saying that he and his daughter are doing okay. If I remember correctly they dropped the case against him too.


As for the original topic honestly I'm a lot like Ryan, basically I'm the "stereotypical guy" or whatever so I can't say much but I will say that I think gender is a lot different than society classifies it and It's not my job to judge what is right or wrong when it comes to self expression, so I don't.