i have alot of trouble wrapping my head around many mtf here who put so much emphasis on having a vulva instead of a penis. even though i have a penis, i barely think about it, and i'm not the type who breaks down crying when i have to look at it in the shower. i just feel nothing about it. i don't like it, and i don't hate it. hrt was really the most important thing to me. as far as having a vagina for aesthetic reasons or feeling like more of a woman, well, i don't. exclusively, i feel like it's just the ideal for sex reasons, and that's it. the emphasis of having a vulva just makes me more mad because it keeps furthuring the idea that "you aren't really a woman until the penis comes off." that's just how i see it.

For me it's simply about being as complete a woman as I can.. Sex doesn't really interest me at this point, but I would like to be all that I can be..

There are a lot of trans people that don't want or need surgery. What's unfortunate is the standards in obtaining gender marker changes for trans women. In many ways "full srs" (whatever the heck that means!) is the only way to go to be legally recognized and that's screwed up. Not everybody wants or needs surgery but people feel incredibly pressured to get it then end up unhappy.

I'm not saying that everybody feels that way, but there's a portion that do. Same with me. I've got a large chest, but I'm not going to get top surgery because I just don't want it. Sure, down the road I might want it but for now I'm completely comfortable with my top and bottom half.

Not having surgery doesn't make a person less of a man or woman. Having surgery doesn't make a person more of a man or woman.

For me it's just for sex. And those things aren't easy to take care of you know.

Without the knowledge that surgery is somewhere in my future, I'm not sure anything else would be possible.  I'd have no drive to find work and no desire to live in the world.  Knowing I'd never be with another person again because I could never have a relationship with an uncorrected body... I'd kill myself.

So what will be my drive after surgery?  Living the life that was either denied me or I denied myself due to my loathing of my body.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on September 06, 2011, 07:56:08 PM
Without the knowledge that surgery is somewhere in my future, I'm not sure anything else would be possible.  I'd have no drive to find work and no desire to live in the world.  Knowing I'd never be with another person again because I could never have a relationship with an uncorrected body... I'd kill myself.

So what will be my drive after surgery?  Living the life that was either denied me or I denied myself due to my loathing of my body.

it seemed to be living fulltime and being on hrt that did that for me. i'm not really "looking forward" to srs. i think i would like it some day, but it would just be the cherry on top of the sundae, no pun intended.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 06, 2011, 08:28:35 PM
No one should have genital surgery unless they have to. It's a very difficult thing to go through and could be traumatizing if you are not ready for it.

If you are happy now, thats a great thing.

Good luck honey.

Some people "have to" in order to have all of their documents match the gender they identify/present as...to prevent mismatches between SS, birth certificate, and state ID. If you have those miss matches it's possible that you won't be able to get a job...and you might have to explain that you're trans (Which many people DON'T want to do). So at times it can be surgery or never have a job, not being able to get married/have rights associated with legal marriage, etc.

Really is super craptastical that there's the surgery standard.

The only way I could have lived without SRS would be if I never wanted to have a life partner and if I never wanted to have a life period...there are too many activities that I actively participate in ~15 years post-operatively that would not have been available to me as a penis'ed woman. 

So for me, having SRS *was* about getting on with life.  I could not have lived in the solitude that exists behind a computer screen where I would not be interacting with people on a regular basis in settings where what was between my legs could be an integral part of daily life...

Quote from: Nygeel on September 06, 2011, 08:59:11 PM
Some people "have to" in order to have all of their documents match the gender they identify/present as...to prevent mismatches between SS, birth certificate, and state ID. If you have those miss matches it's possible that you won't be able to get a job...and you might have to explain that you're trans (Which many people DON'T want to do). So at times it can be surgery or never have a job, not being able to get married/have rights associated with legal marriage, etc.

Really is super craptastical that there's the surgery standard.

Yep, it really does bite that unless I have surgery, that I don't feel strongly one way or the other about, I will always have a M on my ID.

This was discussed here recently (got a bit ugly..) and seems even some trans people want to fight to not allow non-op women from having their ID's changed. Main argument they said they wouldn't want to be put in jail with a non-op woman? Seems pretty bizarre reason, like I'm sure there are lots of sex crazed males that would take hormones and kill their ability and desire for sex so they could go out, get arrested and be in jail with women.. That was the argument they gave.

I would think a letter from a doc/therapist saying "this person is now the opposite gender" should be all they require. I think for FTM that's it isn't it?

Quote from: Stephe on September 06, 2011, 10:34:05 PM
Yep, it really does bite that unless I have surgery, that I don't feel strongly one way or the other about, I will always have a M on my ID.

This was discussed here recently (got a bit ugly..) and seems even some trans people want to fight to not allow non-op women from having their ID's changed. Main argument they said they wouldn't want to be put in jail with a non-op woman? Seems pretty bizarre reason, like I'm sure there are lots of sex crazed males that would take hormones and kill their ability and desire for sex so they could go out, get arrested and be in jail with women.. That was the argument they gave.

I would think a letter from a doc/therapist saying "this person is now the opposite gender" should be all they require. I think for FTM that's it isn't it?

If a sex crazed male really wanted to go that far out of his way to do that then he would've done it already. I really don't see the big deal of it but that's not really here or there.

For trans guys to get an M, I'm pretty sure there has to be a surgery. I don't know if it's just top surgery or if it needs to be a hysto. I still haven't gotten my ID changed.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 06, 2011, 09:33:22 PM
The only way I could have lived without SRS would be if I never wanted to have a life partner and if I never wanted to have a life period...there are too many activities that I actively participate in ~15 years post-operatively that would not have been available to me as a penis'ed woman. 

So for me, having SRS *was* about getting on with life.  I could not have lived in the solitude that exists behind a computer screen where I would not be interacting with people on a regular basis in settings where what was between my legs could be an integral part of daily life...

I guess to me what's between my legs isn't an integral part of my daily life. I also don't consider myself a "penis'ed woman" I'm just a woman who can't have the correct gender on my ID because some people think surgically altering my body is required for me to be a woman. For me, my nose job to fem up my face was more important than srs. People see my face on a daily basis, no one sees what's between my legs. I honestly think I can survive not being in a womans public shower etc where the public would see me naked.  I really don't get the whole obsession with a penis one way or the other. Most FTM don't seem to be obsessed with this like the MTF are? The only reason I can see that srs would be a deal breaker for me would be for sex with a straight guy, but then most of them you would have to be stealth and never tell them about your past and I don't think I would want to be in a relationship like that to start with. From what I have read lots of post-ops never have an orgasm so not sure how great that sort of sex would be anyway for me.

I realize some people REALLY hate their body and will kill themselves if they can't get SRS, I just don't think ONLY those people should be allowed to change their gender markers.. Oh and BTW, some of us that haven't had surgery exist away from our computer screens. 

Quote from: Nygeel on September 06, 2011, 10:37:02 PM
If a sex crazed male really wanted to go that far out of his way to do that then he would've done it already.

Well the crazy part to me, if he is taking hormones, trust me he would no longer be sex crazed and not likely to even be able to have sex with the women he is locked up with.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 06, 2011, 09:06:02 PM
Then dont have a legal mismatch, but that is beyond the scope of the thread.

When I did my RLE, my id's all had male on it. Of course, I hated that when I went through it but I did it.

So you hated this and know others do but also feel that others should have to just deal with this the rest of their lives unless they have surgery, that you also say they shouldn't have done unless they need to? Do you see any contradiction here?

For myself...I'm male, therefore my body is male.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 06, 2011, 11:06:49 PM
On second thought I'm not going to argue with you. Your just such an angry person I dont want to talk with you.

I'm deleting my posts here and will just wish Fullmoon good luck.

I was just seeing if you really think it's OK to tell other people they should spend the rest of their life suffering with something you hated to deal with yourself, even though with you it was just a temporary problem. You even posted here how HAPPY you were when you got an F on your ID.

I don't think anyone should have to suffer over something like this. I guess that makes me a mean/angry person?

Quote from: Stephe on September 06, 2011, 10:46:45 PM
I guess to me what's between my legs isn't an integral part of my daily life.

and that would get to the most basic essence of the differences between someone who claims to be transgendered as opposed to those who are transsexual. 

QuotePeople see my face on a daily basis, no one sees what's between my legs. I honestly think I can survive not being in a womans public shower etc where the public would see me naked.

some of us ARE in locker rooms on a regular basis.  Some of us DO go to pool parties that turn into skinny-dipping affairs on a very regular basis.  Some of us DO enjoy our relationships with people where we don't have to explain why we are not anatomically correct. 

QuoteI really don't get the whole obsession with a penis one way or the other. Most FTM don't seem to be obsessed with this like the MTF are? The only reason I can see that srs would be a deal breaker for me would be for sex with a straight guy, but then most of them you would have to be stealth and never tell them about your past and I don't think I would want to be in a relationship like that to start with.

I have no idea about relationships with guys.  I also cannot tell you anything about what an F2M might deal with since I have known only a few in my lifetime, none of whom I was looking to date, so we never discussed that component of their life.  I can tell you that a significant number of lesbians I know and have dated would assure you that a penis in the bedroom would be a deal-breaker. 

QuoteFrom what I have read lots of post-ops never have an orgasm so not sure how great that sort of sex would be anyway for me.

And those of us that ARE post-op would tell you that you shouldn't believe everything you read...while some small percentage may not have an orgasm, even those post-ops would generally tell you that would much rather be incapable of orgasm than to live another moment longer with the wrong genitalia. 

QuoteI realize some people REALLY hate their body and will kill themselves if they can't get SRS, I just don't think ONLY those people should be allowed to change their gender markers.. Oh and BTW, some of us that haven't had surgery exist away from our computer screens.

The issue of the gender marker is one that has been hashed and rehashed in other threads.  The non- and pre-ops tend to be the ones that want to basically create an asterisk category by demanding that 'well, I dress this way, therefore I demand a new letter on my ID.'  We live in a binary society and some of us have no problem with maintaining the status quo.  But, FWIW, there are a number of jurisdictions in which surgery was not actually required in order to change the DL...although due to the abuses that have taken place, courts are becoming more restrictive in what they will place in the Order associated with the name change.  I don't see a problem with that level of restriction.  There are a number of valid reasons to have markers that properly identify what is between the legs but the pre- and non-ops have repeatedly refused to pay heed to those discussions, instead reducing it to the jail issue (which is no different at its most basic level than those who reduce public accomodation arguments to the bathroom issue). 

I'm transsexual because I have discomfort with the sex I was assigned at birth. I am currently ID'd as non-op because I don't see any possibility of ever affording surgery. What valid reasons are there for making me have an ID based on what's between my legs?

Quote from: Ann Onymous on September 06, 2011, 11:53:50 PM
The non- and pre-ops tend to be the ones that want to basically create an asterisk category by demanding that 'well, I dress this way, therefore I demand a new letter on my ID.'  We live in a binary society and some of us have no problem with maintaining the status quo. 

I don't "dress this way", I live 24/7 as a woman. I don't see how I am not maintaining the status quo other than subjecting myself to invasive surgery I don't -need-.   I actually had some fem surgery, just not in a place most people will never see. Been on HRT for a while too, but I guess all that to some is still defined as "dress this way" until I -girl up- and have it cut off?

Also I'm not asking for "other" to be on my ID or this 'asterisk category' you refer to, just that it reflects my actual identification. How does an M on my ID help identify me? Unless they have xray vision, they aren't going to know what's between my legs.

To use your above paintbrush.. The post ops seem to be the ones wanting to restrict ID changes to themselves, some quite vocally. If we debate this denial of our rights, we are called "angry people". The one smite on my profile is from a post-op TS about this very issue..

Unless of course you see women who haven't had SRS as a "man in a dress". In that case there is no point in going any further with this.

Quote from: Nygeel on September 06, 2011, 08:59:11 PM

Really is super craptastical that there's the surgery standard.

what really sucks is it varies from state to state (I'm in the US)

Quote from: Stephe on September 06, 2011, 10:34:05 PM
I would think a letter from a doc/therapist saying "this person is now the opposite gender" should be all they require. I think for FTM that's it isn't it?

It varies from state to state.  My state requires surgery (can be top or hysto if the letter is worded right)

Quote from: Stephe on September 07, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
I don't "dress this way", I live 24/7 as a woman.

so please tell us how your last appointment with the gynecologist went...

Defense rests.

QuoteUnless of course you see women who haven't had SRS as a "man in a dress". In that case there is no point in going any further with this.

There isn't any point in going further with ANY of the pre- or non-op's because the divide between that group and those who are post-op is simply too great to be overcome.  But because some of us got on with life as it SHOULD have been, it is only a matter of time before some around here begin tossing the ever-so-popular taunt that those of us who are post-operative are also elitist.