As I read through this thread, Misery initially asked for advice on looking more androgynous, and in subsequent posts, expressed also being gender variant.

For some androgynes, being androgyne is entirely psychological, an awareness of internal sense of self, however other androgynes here have expressed need/desire for surgeries or HRT to better match their external presentation with the internal. There isn't one way to be androgyne. I know I'm still figuring it out for myself, even after years.

A gentle reminder:

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15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Z

Hmm, I have been known to make big assumptions.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
You better believe I know what it is, after so much time of dealing and struggling with the whole accursed thing.   Frankly, there are times I wish I DIDNT know (generally, when I'm feeling irritable).   But at the same time, it IS a part of who I am, and you better believe I've spent alot of time analyzing it.   

The comment about being sick &c was not at you, it was a snappy comment about a few recent posts across the board.

Also, I used to see this as an accused thing to put up with, but with a few small changes in appearance and one huge change in attitude, I now can enjoy being the person I am, as I couldn't before.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
The physical aspect is there, but assuming that it's JUST physical is.... well, silly.

Exactly. It's why I keep harping on about the mental stuff, because lots of people only see the physical, so I make an effort (an over effort?) to mention the importance of the mental and identity stuff.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
Telling me to look into female behavior/clothes/whatever makes sense.... because I am physically male.   THAT part should be pretty simple to understand, frankly.   Were I physcially female, I would likely get the other side of the advice.     I really dont know how you can pull "offensive" out of that.     There's no reason to be oversensitive about it.     

I explained better above, but my problem is that a truly legitimate androgyne space relies on the possibility that there is something outside of the gender binary. To say androgynous is male with female stuff shoved on, is a denial of this space. A denial that happens throughout and across the TG world, and even has it's own anti-androgyne/crossdresser hate groups.

Oddly enough oversensitivity is not something that has ever been levelled at me before, but the accumulation of these moments can be jarring, especially when they occur in the only 'place' that talking about non-binary things is the norm. I feel that in my very rare forays into the MTF, FTM, CD or intersex camps, I have a little read around  to find out the bascs and attempt to be sensitive, no such effort seems to be made before one of those camps post in the androgyne section.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
It is, frankly, whatever I bloody well decide that it is, since it's MY appearance, and MY mind.

Cool, then what you asking advice for? You seem clear, screwed on and determined. Need a little play and experimentation, but you know in your mind the result you want, so those areas to experiment with are already there.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
Everyone's situation is different.   My situation is DEFINITELY different (there's more to it than I've even hinted at), and so "normal" advice for this, if there was such a thing, does not necessarily apply. 

Exactly, and the advice that I (rather vehemently) went against is advice for transitioning over the binary. From one clear set of expectations to another. Androgyne transition is very different to binary transition, for a start there is no clear expectations. This means some advice that does work for a binary transition, does not for an androgyne one. Some, even creates pain and confusion. 

I have seen the posts by people who try that mimic path, questions like 'Some days I like lipstick, and some days I don't. What am I?'
Sounds like you are clear and solid in yourself, but this whole thing is so easy to get lost in, and trying to do a binary transition into a non-binary identity seems to be one of the easiest and most painful ways to get lost.

Quote from: Misery on September 04, 2011, 06:50:56 PM
And even then.... getting annoyed because the given advice doesnt match what you specifically think it should is kinda silly.

I disagree here, if there is advice that is harmful, as I stated above.

I may be wrong - but this a rare moment of certainty for me.

 

I don't often come to this neck of the woods, and I'm the first one to admit that I am a bit out of my element here. That's why I read much more than I post in these areas.

Welcome, Misery.

Thank you, Pica, for dialing it back a notch. I can see why you were irritated. I thought you came off rather strong at first, though. But it would have been easy for you to just leave it at that and not help others to understand. So thanks for clarifying. You tend to make me think, and you help me to expand my horizons.

But it seems to me that there may be some androgynes who feel the need to look androgynous. For whatever reason. I know a couple of genderqueer persons who are very much like that. One has had top surgery but no T. He goes by male pronouns. But mentally, he is more mid-spectrum, and he feels compelled to look androgynous. That's where he's comfortable. Can't it be that way for some androgynes?

Quote from: Zythyra on September 04, 2011, 07:19:17 PM
For some androgynes, being androgyne is entirely psychological, an awareness of internal sense of self, however other androgynes here have expressed need/desire for surgeries or HRT to better match their external presentation with the internal.

But to do that, the androgyne has to know what the internal part is first, to know how to match it.

Turned out Misery does, but most people who come here looking for advice, do not, and they start sorting out the externals before they know what it is supposed to represent. Then they get depressed, confused and upset. I was hoping I was helping Misery to avoid some....misery.

Quote from: Arch on September 04, 2011, 07:24:11 PM
But it seems to me that there may be some androgynes who feel the need to look androgynous. For whatever reason. I know a couple of genderqueer persons who are very much like that. One has had top surgery but no T. He goes by male pronouns. But mentally, he is more mid-spectrum, and he feels compelled to look androgynous. That's where he's comfortable. Can't it be that way for some androgynes?

No problem. But I bet your androgyne friend knew where they wanted to be before they started trying to go there.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 07:24:49 PM
But to do that, the androgyne has to know what the internal part is first, to know how to match it.

Turned out Misery does, but most people who come here looking for advice, do not, and they start sorting out the externals before they know what it is supposed to represent. Then they get depressed, confused and upset. I was hoping I was helping Misery to avoid some....misery.

Your intentions are laudable. I understand.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 07:24:49 PMo problem. But I bet your androgyne friend knew where they wanted to be before they started trying to go there.

So true. And that was just what bothered some of the people in the local trans community. They wanted him to be an FTM, and he knew that he wasn't. Some people thought he was just afraid to go "all the way" by taking the usual route of T and top surgery. If nothing else, his surgery should have disproved this line of thinking. But some people still wonder why he isn't on T.

Maybe, someday, he'll decide that he really is a guy. But that might never happen--he seems very comfortable with where he is now--and it's not up to me to try to second-guess HIS identity--past, present, or future. I take him as he is.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
I find it incredible that on the same site that hosts probably the most lovely and focused chats on being androgyne and issues of androgynity can also have biweekly links in the news section to personal blogs detailing how disgusting, wrong, ugly and out of place androgynes and other 'transgender' types are to the normal MTF crowd.

Some of the blogs out there are truly hateful toward anyone not exactly like them, particularly if their target doesn't happen to subscribe to a narrow definition of binary identity and/or expression. I have to wonder what is so scary about us, what part of themselves is closer to this than they can stand to admit? My existence of not fitting into the binary in no way negates someone else for whom a binary gender feels right.

I do my best to understand all viewpoints, so I can better articulate my path. All we can do is continue to educate, so that our identities and/or choices are understood, and so that we eventually become slightly less invisible.

Z

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
Not offended, but I did feel that it was utterly wrong advice. Maybe I'm wrong maybe being an androgyne is not about a quest for authentic self, maybe it is just an excuse to look pretty and mince about.

I'm just sick and tired of people coming into the androgyne section who clearly do not have the first clue what an androgyne is.

Don't worry, shallow me get's the message and will "look pretty and mince about" elsewhere from now on..

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 06:56:52 PM
Stephe, I blew up a bit. I have thought of a calmer and fairer way to explain myself.

You saw androgynous and thought of someone like Andrej Pejic - that model, identifies as male and looks like a wraithlike female.

You naturally applied this to Misery, to be androgynous, they are a male (hence male pronouns) but come across as a female (so the roleplay and the learning and such)...and hey presto! androgynous. Makes perfect sense.

Totally wrong. You have NO IDEA what I think, know or understand. Do you have any clue how insulting it is to tell someone else what they were thinking?

Believe it or not, I lived very androgynously for about at least 10 years of my life, people were as likely to call me ma'am as sir. Most avoided using gender pronouns all together, I wasn't sure myself where I stood on the gender spectrum or if I fit at all. I'm still discovering things about myself but have moved more towards the feminine end.

But again,I  can see I'm not welcome here. Hope you can keep this forum exclusively for people who share your personal viewpoint since that seems to be your hot button. I'm making a point not to respond to ANY posts addressed here again.

You can go to your account settings and go to the ignore boards section, check the little boxes for Andogyn and Androgyn Talk.
That way they won't even show up on your screens.

Ativan

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
But again,I  can see I'm not welcome here. Hope you can keep this forum exclusively for people who share your personal viewpoint since that seems to be your hot button. I'm making a point not to respond to ANY posts addressed here again.

You are welcome, hope you'll continue to post here!

Z

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 08:45:27 PM
Totally wrong. You have NO IDEA what I think, know or understand. Do you have any clue how insulting it is to tell someone else what they were thinking?

Believe it or not, I lived very androgynously for about at least 10 years of my life, people were as likely to call me ma'am as sir. Most avoided using gender pronouns all together, I wasn't sure myself where I stood on the gender spectrum or if I fit at all. I'm still discovering things about myself but have moved more towards the feminine end.

But again,I  can see I'm not welcome here. Hope you can keep this forum exclusively for people who share your personal viewpoint since that seems to be your hot button. I'm making a point not to respond to ANY posts addressed here again.

There really is no reason for such anger here, I think.

You have to expect this, on a forum, or anywhere.   Sometimes, you're going to run into people that dont agree with your viewpoint.   Or conflict with it, or whatever term you want to use.  But you cant let them get to you, and there's no point in getting overly aggravated.    I really dont think Pica meant any offense here.     For some, your views and thoughts may simply be difficult to understand, that's all, and that's something to keep in mind.

*I* do understand them, at least, if that helps.



Still..... oi.   One of these days I'll figure out why arguements start whenever I post things on forums like this.    .....no, seriously.   This happens all the time.   Lol.   Dunno why.

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explained better above, but my problem is that a truly legitimate androgyne space relies on the possibility that there is something outside of the gender binary. To say androgynous is male with female stuff shoved on, is a denial of this space. A denial that happens throughout and across the TG world, and even has it's own anti-androgyne/crossdresser hate groups.

I can understand this.... but as Zythyra said, "there isnt any one way to be androgyne", which is sort of part of what I've been saying as well.     The whole "male with female stuff shoved on" may not be necessary for you.... and I can totally understand that.... but for others, it indeed is going to be important.  You dont have to understand why.    Heck, THEY dont have to understand why.   If it's the way it is, then.... it's the way it is.   Simple as that.

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I have a little read around  to find out the bascs and attempt to be sensitive, no such effort seems to be made before one of those camps post in the androgyne section.

I think this one is something to keep in mind;   just because THEY do it.... doesnt mean you have to.    Be sensitive and pleasant to them anyway, I think.    If they want to be flaming jackasses about it, it's THEIR problem, really.   I think I know what you mean though.

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Cool, then what you asking advice for? You seem clear, screwed on and determined. Need a little play and experimentation, but you know in your mind the result you want, so those areas to experiment with are already there.

Haha, yes, apparantly I do tend to come off as calm and clear and determined.   In reality, I have a very fiery personality;  I'm the sort that, if an obstacle is in front of me, my first thought is to smash the hell outta it, rather than walk around.   On forums and such, I've simply learned to control my usual explosiveness, so I tend to come across as more collected than I actually am.   

With this particular issue, my problem is mostly a simple lack of knowledge.   I know what I want, but I dont know enough about the whole thing to make it there.   





.....and I've forgotten what else I was going to say.    Grand!

Alas, no one knows all that much. Everyone's just stumbling 'long side each other.

Youtube makeup videos.
Buy cheap makeup of different kinds.
Try, over and over.
buy makeup removing cream.

Photographic camera, take pictures of every attempt and don't delete the ones which you hate. They will be useful.
Compare and contrast, photoshop or whatever, parts of one into another.

Soon you'll figure out what works and what doesn't

This is the how I can think of. Why, I dont particularly care.

Now if you were to tell more about the actual style you want, regardless if it's "femenine" or "androgyne' or "alien" style, that would help the specifics more.

There is sections in the general discussion area, there is a beauty and make up topics that may give you some ideas.
Let us know if you are finding what you want. It would be great to see the finished product, so to speak! 

Ativan

Welcome, Misery.  Sorry this topic kind of went toxic, I don't think it's your fault.

I think for many people, untangling the issues of how to present oneself with the psychological side of things and being genuinely oneself is a gradual, confusing process.  I don't think there's anything wrong with starting off asking about presentation.  At the same time, Pica and Ativan have a solid point in reinforcing the difference.

The thing that encouraged me to finally puzzle out my identity was a growing need to express myself outwardly.  In order to figure out how to do that, I had to figure out what was going on inside my head, other than a vague sense of something girly-but-not-girly in there.  Once I did start figuring thijngs out, I put a lot of emphasis on the expression.  I asked pretty much the same questions Misery did and was also unsatisfied by the initial answers.  Ultimately I realized that it was up to me to express myself in a true manner.

So I experimented a bit.  I found my current comfort zone and my needs.  I shifted my wardrobe a little bit and bought some jewelry and occasionally do mascara or toenail painting.  But I find I don't really have to do much outwardly to feel like I'm doing *something*.  Some of my most positive, honest "I feel androgyn" outfits have been made entirely of "mens'" clothes I already owned, and the attitude that I am who I am and am not hiding it nor need to shout it to everyone.  My identity isn't dependent on other peoples' binary-restricted perceptions.

I would love to look nicer.  More in shape, with a slimmer build.  I'd even like to have facial features and hair that lended themselves to an "androgynous look" for whatever loose definition there is.  Also I want to be rich, to fly, to be a wizard, to visit Titan and Io, to sell a multi-platinum album of industrial ambient glitch music, and to cure cancer.   There is no "looking androgynous" for me.  I can either express myself honestly, hide an aspect of who I am, or wear a costume.  Sometimes the same outfit serves as any of those depending on my inner landscape.

But I do sympathize with people trying to make themselves look on the outside the way they feel on the inside.

Quote from: foosnark on September 07, 2011, 11:57:41 AM
[...] to sell a multi-platinum album of industrial ambient glitch music, [...]

WELL. Get to work on it then, I'll buy you two copies.

*loves Loves glich music*

Quote from: foosnark on September 07, 2011, 11:57:41 AM

But I find I don't really have to do much outwardly to feel like I'm doing *something*.  Some of my most positive, honest "I feel androgyn" outfits have been made entirely of "mens'" clothes I already owned, and the attitude that I am who I am and am not hiding it nor need to shout it to everyone.  My identity isn't dependent on other peoples' binary-restricted perceptions.

this.

There are many paths through the unicorn forest; there is no "one" way to be an androgyne. We have a wide range of unicorns here, each of us wondering our own path through the forest and often meeting each other on the journey and sharing a bit of fruitcake. Some of us choose to express an outward appearance that mirrors our inner self, some do not. I happen to be one of the "do nots" in public and that's ok.

The one thing that we all share is the feeling that we do not belong at either end of the gender spectrum where the binary people are.

Quote from: foosnark on September 07, 2011, 11:57:41 AM
But I do sympathize with people trying to make themselves look on the outside the way they feel on the inside.

Indeed.