I'm glad this has turned out to be a productive and calm discussion. I was really nervous that it could turn into a flame-fest but everyone has discussed their reasoning very well without being negative and dismissive to others. I certainly feel like I have a little more insight into the minds and lives of others after reading everyone's comments so far.

I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here but I do know that it has gotten worse with age and seems to be picking up speed so I guess what I'm doing is accepting that I won't be able to beat the GID so I may as well make plans to transition in the least painful way, while I still have choices in the timing.

Transition is a unique and personal process and I thank you all for sharing your stories.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others...

I had felt like this when I first started visiting this site. That was about 4 years ago. I really wasn't aware of my dysphoria as gender related. But, I had this nagging sense of being depressed and out of sorts for most of my life post-puberty. When I had the sudden insight that it was gender related, it was like a huge burden was lifted. It was relief, and now my transition is underway.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here...

You can't compare yourself to others... As cliche as it is to say this, you're the only one who can define yourself. I guess by now you realize that though

I started going full-time pretty much as soon as I told a few friends. I just cut my hair off, started building up a male wardrobe, got a couple of binders and changed my name. I was getting ma'amed for quite a while and still occassionally get the odd female pronoun at work which is a little embarrassing because I'm completely stealth. But for me, it was more about getting my friends and family comfortable with the idea before making any permanent changes. I didn't want to call my dad one day with a deep, gravelly voice or visit him with 5:00 shadow. And as well, I had just moved to a whole new city that is a lot smaller, a lot less open-minded and a lot less queer. I'm living with another transguy as well, so I'd be risking his social status and his health by coming out - either people would figure him out or they'd see him as "harbouring a ->-bleeped-<-" and he could get his ass kicked and be shunned. People don't really even talk about being gay or bisexual here, so transsexuality is pretty taboo...

I figured my best bet would be to go in to this new city as Ryan, a fully male person. I figure if anyone does ask, which I highly highly doubt anyone would, I could just say I have a problem with my pituitary gland, I have low T, I have a medical condition, I'm intersex, or it's none of their g** d*** business. (The latter sounds like the best answer - I'd rather not lie and use a medical condition I don't even have). But no one really seems to suspect me of anything. I guess I pass well enough.

My only problem is girls. They're really cute in this city. And for once, they notice me. They treat me like a guy and there's a bit of casual flirting going on. Nothing heavy obviously, I'm not that good looking, but damn it's hard. There is a girl I like and I'm afraid to do anything D:

I started HRT shortly after I went full time.  I had planned it that way.  Of course the first step was to come out at work, second was to start my RLT followed closely by HRT.  The way I saw this was that results from HRT are not instantaneous, and starting HRT would not convince all those in the company that I was a woman.  Coming out and starting my RLE was more important to me than HRT, it also avoided complications of trying to hide any changes before I came out which can be tricky especially if breast development is significant.  I felt that employees would be better able to rationalize seeing these changes after I came out and started RLT.

It worked out very well in my situation.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here ......

Actually THAT seems to be the point that divides our community.  People want to claim "I'm more trans than you because I took a knife to my..." or "I was suicidal". I could turn it around and say I was more trans than them because I starting living full time with ZERO medical support I needed this so badly. BUT none of that is true. We all have gender identity issues and each person has to figure out what they need to do to resolve it by doing things that improve the quality of their lives.

Only you can decide what improves your life. For someone who is shy, being full time before they pass really well from months or more of HRT would decrease the quality of their lives. For an extroverted person, it would improve it by not waiting and suffering for no good reason. I had to make the choice between taking E and having a NASTY headache 24/7 or living without it. For me taking E lowered the overall quality of my life more than taking it improved it. Although Spiro has made a HUGE improvement in my life. We all have choices to make and how we make them doesn't reflect on "how trans we are" or how much of a man/woman we are no matter what some people say otherwise.

Simple answer:
Because in SA it is prescriptive according their interpretation of the SoC. 1 year RLE before HRT!

I understand the same is the case, was the case? in Germany and Switzerland.

NUTS, all I can say,

Went FT 4 month before DIY HRT, - due to the issue, see above.
Also, FT after 2nd 'gatekeeper' meeting 2 weeks after 1st meeting.
I just COULD NOT switch back and forth.
My GID went through the roof when I had to go back to boy-guise.
So the decision was simple, and to hell if I was going to be clocked.
BTW my avatar shows me pre-HRT.

Axelle

I wasn't willing to wait however long I was going to have to wait to get HRT to start living my life the way I wanted to. Therefore, I lived as a girl(I'm young ) for over a year and a half now! HRT is coming soon! Yippe!

I'm in a similar position to Axelle; in the UK you need to have lived F/T for at least 3 months before they'll prescribe HRT - and by GIC standards, F/T = change of name, IDs, etc. Used to be longer - again, I think it was a year. Thank God they changed it, I'd have gone nuts :S

I'm going to apply hindsight in answering your question Jessica.  But first I want to say I once asked the same question, as going full time, without having been on HRT for a while, made no sense to me.

Now I know HRT can affect your thinking.  And it can take whatever inclinations one has about living life in the opposite gender and make them stronger.  In other words, if you're on the fence, HRT can push you over it.  So HRT can create a situation that's not truly congruous with one's personality.  And that can result in a false positive.

Sure, if you transition you will most likely remain on HRT for the rest of your life.  But that logic is like saying if you place yourself in a depressing situation you'll be okay, as long as you take anti-depressants the rest of your life.

My hindsight tells me you must first KNOW, not guess, not suspect, but actually know you need to transition.  But if you don't know for sure and want to know, why not do the RLE to find out?  No doubt, passing will be tougher.  But if you still want to transition after that, you'll really know for sure this is right for you.

I realize going on HRT is a great way to experience a little of what it might be like to transition.  And most can do it for a while without anyone knowing.  Kind of like our little secret, and behind closed doors or out on late evening jaunts, it's great.  But it does little in preparing you for the realities of transitioning and usually increases your belief transitioning is right for you.  There's an element of illusion living this experience.

I look at my partner Julie.  Hands down, without a doubt, I knew transition was right for her.  And today she will tell you it was.  I can't say the same for me.  As time goes on, I am finding the pendulum swinging back to male more and more.  I'm also getting tired of all the work I have to do to pass.  And I think I've ruined my voice.  I'd categorize myself as one of the fence sitters that HRT pushed over.

Now I can see the logic in doing the RLE before HRT.

Julie Marie, that is a great point of view and one I have not thought of. Personally, I was pretty damn sure of what I was but I just wanted to make sure I felt the same way after my T bottomed out and I was full of E. After that, I felt ready to start doing things I always thought were impossible, like sitting in front of a doctor and therapist and tell them the secret I have alwasy guarded with my life.

If someone wants to transition socially before HRT, I support them 100 percent but for gatekeepers to deny treatment with HRT becasue you aren't willing to transition without the help of HRT is absolutely cruel, in my honest opinion. I'm not sure what I'd do if that were my only option.  One thing I have found out in the last year is that as the GID gets stronger, you will do things you never thought possible to relieve it's pain and pressure.

I have heard that trans people make a "choice" to transition. I guess it's a choice if you consider the other options to be viable choices. I kinda think it's like judging someone who leaps to their death from a tall building and forgeting to mention that they had second degree burns from the flames that instinctively lead the survival instinct to get away from the most immediate pain and harm.

So that leads me to a question. Should we be denied treatment until our pain gets so bad that we are at the point that nothing else matters and we will play the game like they want? Or are do we deserve compassion and RESPECT over our bodies and destiny? I know I have choices that many do not have but it just ignites a fury inside me that my brothers and sisters are treated this way by the system that is supposed to HELP us. I think we all should DEMAND better and NOT accept the status quo!

Ok, I got off on a tangent.....I also think my HRT is out of whack becasue I have had some serious anger and iritability issues lately.   

Quote from: JessicaH on September 12, 2011, 03:11:26 PM
Julie Marie, that is a great point of view and one I have not thought of.

Many years ago I decided there is no way I could live full time, it just takes too much effort everyday to make myself "passable". Back then it might take 2 hours to get myself fem looking. I have MPB so have always had to wear a wig and they were hot and uncomfortable. I did think I could deal with that either.

I've discovered in a rush at this point I can get from bed to out the door in 20 minutes including shower and makeup. Most days casually doing this while fixing/drinking coffee, picking out and ironing etc takes like 45 minutes. I've found a comfortable wig I love and gotten very used to it. "Dealing" with being a woman isn't nearly the hassle I envisioned. Sure it takes time to keep my nails nice but some things like going to nail spa isn't too much suffering Makeup is getting easier and as my skin improves, I need less.

For me I knew this wasn't driven sexually but I wasn't sure I wanted to force myself with having to deal with being a woman the rest of my life. I needed to do a RLT for myself and make SURE I could deal with this on a daily basis before I got on HRT, had any surgery etc. For others maybe getting on HRT would prove to themselves this isn't sexually motivated before they turn their life upside down going full time.

I don't think there is one solution that works for everyone about any of this.

Your initial post, Jessica, pretty much lays out my own plans. I have only been on hormones for 2 1/2 weeks and plan on going stealth as long as possible. One day, when it's time, I'll take some time off and get FFS and whatever else needs to be done (non-op, but plan on the probability that I will need to get some nips and tucks eventually to finish filling out).

I was actually surprised that my doctor couldn't seem to understand that and thought it abnormal. Apparently the normal thing would be for me to immediately start presenting in fem mode, never mind the fact that I'm over 6' tall and have no curves.

I understand how people feel, going through GID myself, sometimes feeling like I was going crazy and wanting to rip my male-ness off along with my skin, but the fact remains that female clothes are made for female shapes and going out dressed as a female without having any sort of female body parts to fill them out (especially at my height) is just painting a target on yourself.

Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it.

Patience is the key. Being on HRT means you ARE moving forward. It's much better to let things flow naturally than to rush it, otherwise you're just creating more problems for yourself.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 12, 2011, 01:34:34 PM
I can't say the same for me.  As time goes on, I am finding the pendulum swinging back to male more and more.  I'm also getting tired of all the work I have to do to pass.  And I think I've ruined my voice.  I'd categorize myself as one of the fence sitters that HRT pushed over. Now I can see the logic in doing the RLE before HRT.

Julie Marie, the idea of making a mistake of this magnetude terrifies me and, like JessicaH, I too have fears of not being sacked with enough "dysphoria" to feel the need to do or die. I just don't really see the reason to live any more. I tried everything that was supposed to make me "happy" and the "TG Thing" has always followed.

I think that there are two groups of us.... those that insist that they are the opposite gender from the time they can talk....... and then there are those of us that fight it tooth and nail every step of they way, only to discover that we too could not reasonable hold out and expect to enjoy the rest of our lives with who we are.

For me, I knew I was trans but the idea of transitioning was just too scary. It wasn't until I got on HRT that I realized it made me feel "so right" I could not go back. I do hope that I never regret these decisions but they are decades in the works and nothing in my life, or probably anyone that is reading this, has been given as much thought as "To transition or not to transition".... Not our choice of careers, schooling, choice of spouses, when to have and how to raise our children, our diet and exercise programs. For me at least, the "question" has demanded more time than all of the together.

I realized I was transitioning when I realized (thanks to my BFF for pointing it out to me) that "If you stay on HRT then you ARE TRANSITIONING" and I couldn't ever imagine not having access to E and going back to "that feeling". So while I deeply wanted to transition I found myself having to decide between the great possibility of loosing "it all" (my wife, kids, businesses, house, toys, etc.) and found myself making the long and hard decision that transition was really the only choice to enjoy the second half of my life.

I hope with all of this thought that the regret will later be for not doing it earlier than doing it at all. I feel confident it will.

I can portray my reason, which seems to be common, in one quote:  "There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."

I fell into a deep depression for a while before I started living full time.  My breaking point was at an airport, when I was dressed in skinny jeans and a tight fitted t-shirt.  I wasn't even trying to dress that day, it was all men's clothing, but a security guard shot me a "ma'am" when my back was turned.  I was in a good mood for the rest of the day.  After that I was in complete overdrive.  Within a couple weeks, I went from full time male to full time female.  I cringed at any male pronouns, I started to build a new wardrobe, and I started coming out.  I didn't care if people thought the change was too drastic, or even if I passed perfectly in public.  I realized I would rather have an entire room full of people staring at me if it meant looking the way I want, instead of being "normal" and keeping up this boy act.  I would get comments from friends, and I'd reply "yeah, I may be a freak to you, but I'm me now."  As for strangers who cringe when they figure out what's between my legs, well, they can....[insert sexually graphic comment]. 

Quote from: NatashaD on September 12, 2011, 11:00:03 PM
but the fact remains that female clothes are made for female shapes and going out dressed as a female without having any sort of female body parts to fill them out (especially at my height) is just painting a target on yourself.

Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it.

Two points,

one: not all womens clothing looks good on any female. Clothes are made in ALL kinds of shapes to flatter different body types. Many females have few curves either. I am VERY picky about the clothes I choose and how they are cut. I have few natural curves but feel I have clothes that are very flattering to me. I have accepted that some clothes will NEVER look good on me, like I know I'll never pull off looking good in a skimpy sun dress. There are plenty of females who can't either. Pencil skirts look awful on me, A line skirts look great.. Ultra short sleeves or sleeveless looks BAD on me, low cut v necks look great. Born females have to deal with this same issue, finding what looks good for their body type and avoiding what doesn't. BTW I'm 6' tall too.


Second, HRT isn't going to cure this "Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it" and if you feel like this even a tiny little bit, you might as well wear a "I'm a ->-bleeped-<-, kick here" sandwich board. As others have posted at least 75% of passing is your attitude and how you carry yourself.

Agree with you 100000000% Stephe, it is attitude.

But I want to add, HRT helps with giving you peace of mind and increasing your dose of self-steem, what in the end helps with passing. I think how it works in you mentally helps more in passing than the external changes. It is harder to go full time without it and I have a lot of respect for anyone who took that path.

Quote from: Bird on September 13, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
Agree with you 100000000% Stephe, it is attitude.

But I want to add, HRT helps with giving you peace of mind and increasing your dose of self-steem, what in the end helps with passing. I think how it works in you mentally helps more in passing than the external changes. It is harder to go full time without it and I have a lot of respect for anyone who took that path.

Agreed.

I noticed emotional and mental change not long after starting HRT. I've got more confidence now than I had before, and I'm more outgoing. I'm not an extrovert yet, but I'm not as shy as I used to be, either.

I have a few questions to ask that some people could take the wrong way so please know that my questions are honest and I have no agenda but to learn what I can from others. If my observations are incorect, please simply explain why I'm off base.

So...... I'm not sure if attitude really helps with passing. I have seen plenty of anxious or nervous ciswomen and not once did I think they might be trans.  I DO however think that being confident in what you do will make people feel at ease and it's also hard to make fun of someone who is confident. It's like calling a gay guy a queer when he's marching in a pride parade and shouting "were here, we're queer"!

Unless you have a hormone imbalance or indocrine disorder, I'm just not sure that it is intellectually honest to say HRT doesn't help most people more passable. I'm 41 and I have seen a great amount of changes in the last 9 months that I have been on HRT and I would be much more passable when presenting female due to this. I respect other peoples choices on how they manage thier transitions but I think it is a misrepresentation of facts if someone says HRT isn't important in passing (considering that is your goal). There are certainly some other elements to passing, like beard removal, mannerisms,voice, skeletal features (which may even require surgery) and so on.

I guess one would also have to take into account what the most important goal is in transition, as well. Is it freedom to be yourself? Is it to see yourself as female and the world to see you as female? I'm sure I'm missing some other aspects and I trust that someone will help me fill in some spots here.

Again, this is kind of an open discussion and thinking out loud. Please put in your two cent and try to be nice. If something is offensive to you, please assume it wasn't intended to be!!!

With love, JessicaH

Quote from: JessicaH on September 13, 2011, 03:21:49 PM
I have a few questions to ask that some people could take the wrong way so please know that my questions are honest and I have no agenda but to learn what I can from others. If my observations are incorect, please simply explain why I'm off base.

So...... I'm not sure if attitude really helps with passing. I have seen plenty of anxious or nervous ciswomen and not once did I think they might be trans.  I DO however think that being confident in what you do will make people feel at ease and it's also hard to make fun of someone who is confident. It's like calling a gay guy a queer when he's marching in a pride parade and shouting "were here, we're queer"!

Unless you have a hormone imbalance or indocrine disorder, I'm just not sure that it is intellectually honest to say HRT doesn't help most people more passable. I'm 41 and I have seen a great amount of changes in the last 9 months that I have been on HRT and I would be much more passable when presenting female due to this. I respect other peoples choices on how they manage thier transitions but I think it is a misrepresentation of facts if someone says HRT isn't important in passing (considering that is your goal). There are certainly some other elements to passing, like beard removal, mannerisms,voice, skeletal features (which may even require surgery) and so on.

I guess one would also have to take into account what the most important goal is in transition, as well. Is it freedom to be yourself? Is it to see yourself as female and the world to see you as female? I'm sure I'm missing some other aspects and I trust that someone will help me fill in some spots here.

Again, this is kind of an open discussion and thinking out loud. Please put in your two cent and try to be nice. If something is offensive to you, please assume it wasn't intended to be!!!

With love, JessicaH

I agree. Confidence helps, but it's not going to really make or break your passing ability. It's kind of like when people say that what words you speak with and how animated your voice is will make you pass vocally, when it really just comes down to pitch and resonance.

My experience of transition was more like a dam slowly opening rather than crumbling.  I accepted the fact that I would transition nearly 15 months before starting hormones, but I took that 15 months to grow my hair out, learn how to wear makeup, and experiment with whether or not feminizing my appearance made me feel better or fueled the flames in my head (I was testing whether or not transition was the answer and not a diversion from some other problem).

However, I was fortunate to have a job that didn't care how I dressed or looked, as I was a peer tutor and not held to a dress code higher than what any other college student could wear to class without being arrested.  So I wore the makeup to work and everyone assumed I was merely emo.  But the change in me as I shifted my appearance from unmistakably male to androgynous gave me all the answers I needed as to whether or not going all the way in transition was right.  That was the point when I knew I was ready for hormones and made a therapist appointment.  I told her everything I had done, everything I wanted to do, and was pleased to find out that while she thinks the SoC are good guidelines, some people are simply ready to go the moment they walk in the door.  I got my letter on my second appointment.

But that doesn't mean I went full time!  I simply could not see myself doing it until my body and (I hoped at the time) face feminized to a point that I could just step out into the world on day 1 confident that I'd pass.  With limited income, I didn't want to invest in false breasts.   I wanted to grow some of my own before full time.  Now I understand this is a luxury I had that many don't, but I didn't want to have to buy a wig and my face was WAY too blocky for short haircuts.  My hair had to be long enough to hit my shoulders before I'd consider going full time.

And so, when I ticked that last mental box saying I was ready, I jumped right in.  Face was feminizing (and has even come a long way since), breasts started growing, hair was long enough, and I had enough clothing to last me a week thanks to a friend who donated to my cause.

When it comes to confidence and attitude, I simply would have had neither before that checklist was complete.  The reason being, and to answer your question, the goal of my transition was to have the world see me as nothing but female.  I had nothing to prove to myself.