Quote from: Annah on September 06, 2011, 08:45:29 AM
Source: Former Priest

Benedictus Iesus Christus, filius Dei vere

Some possible reasons:
1. Gay marriage does nothing to add to the population of the flock, something I know that's very important to certain religious denominations.  More followers, more money, more power.
2. Permitting gay marriage means you were wrong all along and if you were wrong on this, what else have you been wrong about?
3. Accepting gays means accepting de-masculinization and that means a breakdown in the patriarchy, an important element in most major religions.

Other stuff:

• I've heard Mormons believe it will ruin their chances of the men having 100 wives in the next life.
• I know many religious people believe they have a duty to their god to do whatever they can to increase followers of their faith and reduce the ranks of the sinners.
• And an awful lot of people take writings from the Bible out of context and use them to justify their prejudice and unwillingness to accept change.

Thing is, not one of these reasons stand up in the court of humanity and common sense.

Quote from: xxScarletxx on September 06, 2011, 11:22:29 AM
Benedictus Iesus Christus, filius Dei vere

Iesus est unus of plures dii omnes sunt unum et multa unum

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 06, 2011, 11:28:30 AM

Other stuff:

• I've heard Mormons believe it will ruin their chances of the men having 100 wives in the next life.

I can clear this up. I used to be Mormon. The promise is everlasting marraige or celestial union between a man and the women he marries. Polygamy is not allowed during this life, but if a man gets divorced or loses his wife by death, he can marry again and that marraige will be valid in the afterlife. So, in that way, Mormons do believe in men having more than one wife. Unfortunately, it doesn't go the other way. If a woman is "sealed" to a man and later divorces, she's stuck with him after she and he dies, according to their beliefs.[/list]

Quote from: justmeinoz on September 02, 2011, 04:49:30 AM
You're not supposed to ask those sort of questions!

I almost made a carreer out of asking those sorts of questions.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 06, 2011, 11:28:30 AM
Some possible reasons:
1. Gay marriage does nothing to add to the population of the flock, something I know that's very important to certain religious denominations.  More followers, more money, more power.
2. Permitting gay marriage means you were wrong all along and if you were wrong on this, what else have you been wrong about?
3. Accepting gays means accepting de-masculinization and that means a breakdown in the patriarchy, an important element in most major religions.

And is there anything in all that doesn't have to do with exerting control over people?

Quote from: Slanan on August 27, 2011, 06:36:28 PM
1 Cor 6:9 has a word that is translated "effeminate" or "homosexual" or "men lying with men" depending on your version (and probably other choices).  This translation is very uncertain.

I'm not posting this to argue theology, other than to say that there is clearly debate and discussion on these verses today - not just because some people might be trying to modernize a religion,

If you want to see who is modernizing religion, read the King James version and then read later ones. The older version doesn't have the word homosexuality in this passage but the modern ones do.

Quote from: Stephe on September 06, 2011, 11:13:00 PM

Quote from: Slanan on August 27, 2011, 06:36:28 PM
1 Cor 6:9 has a word that is translated "effeminate" or "homosexual" or "men lying with men" depending on your version (and probably other choices).  This translation is very uncertain. 

I'm not posting this to argue theology, other than to say that there is clearly debate and discussion on these verses today - not just because some people might be trying to modernize a religion,

If you want to see who is modernizing religion, read the King James version and then read later ones. The older version doesn't have the word homosexuality in this passage but the modern ones do.

I guess I feel I need to clarify the meaning of malikos. http://members.cox.net/gnlnews/1cor69.html

Quote
One of the verses used to condemn ->-bleeped-<- is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. In this article, we will do a thorough exegesis of the passage to determine its meaning and find how, if at all, it relates to ->-bleeped-<-.

This verse is cited as saying that the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom of God. This idea is based on the King James Version's translation of the Greek malakoi.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, KJV)

A comparison of the King James and New International translations, however, shows that this translation is not universal.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, NIV)

"Male prostitutes" is a lot different from "effeminate." So what is the correct translation?

Approaching this verse, I at first thought it would simply be a matter of determining the correct meaning of this one word. In retrospect, it has turned out to be more like the process of pealing an onion. This has been compounded by the fact that most commentators and translators seem to have considered this verse either too obvious (perhaps read "inconsequential") or too linguistically difficult to have put much effort into explaining and translating it.

Let us then begin to peel this onion by looking at the meaning of malakos. The following can be extracted from Liddell and Scott [Liddell, Henrey George, and Scott, Robert, revised by Jones, Henrey Stuart, A Greek-English Lexicon With a Supplement, (Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1968), pp.1076f]:

QuoteMalakos has the basic meaning of soft.

of things subject to touch: soft.
A fresh plowed field is a "soft" field; soft, grassy meadow; soft-fleeced; a slow fire is a "soft" fire; marsh water is "soft" water; to sleep "softly" means on soft bedding; to sit "softly" means on a cushion.
of things not subject to touch: gentle; soft, mild.
"Soft" words are fair words; "soft" looks are tender, youthful looks; a "soft" scent is faint, or delicate; a "soft" climate is mild.
of persons or modes of life: soft; mild; gentle; and negatively: feeble; faint-hearted; cowardly; morally weak; lacking in self control;.
"Soft" music is effeminate or tuned to a low pitch. "soft" writing style is feeble. "soft" reason is weak; loose; bodily speaking, "soft" is weakly; sick; to be ill.

There is nothing here to suggest that the meaning is "effeminate," except in the musical sense. And certainly nothing to suggest prostitution.

Looking at other scriptural references is not particularly helpful either. Outside of this verse, the word only appears twice in the Septuagint and twice in the Gospels. In Proverbs 25:15 we hear about the power of a "soft" tongue (fair speech). And in 26:22, gossip is compared to "soft" food (choice morsels). In Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25, John the Baptist asks the crowd if they have come to see a man in "soft" clothing (fine clothes).

The early church fathers generally believed that in this verse Paul was talking about those who were morally weak. It was only in the late middle ages that interpreters started to claim that here "soft" meant some kind of sexual sin.

One argument put forth about translating this word has to do with the meaning of "effeminate" at the time the KJV was written. In the 16th through the 18th Centuries the term "effeminate" did not mean what it means to us today. At that time the term was applied to a class of men who were notorious womanizers. These men pursued women as a career, often living off the older rich women whom they seduced. The most famous of these was Casanova. The modern word would likely be "gigolo."

So far we have made little progress by working with the single word. It is appropriate to move to the next layer by examining the immediate verse. The original text in Greek is:

ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε: οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

This passage lists ten groups of people who "will not inherit the kingdom of God." The Greek for some of these groups is well know; some other terms are difficult. All of the terms in this list are masculine plural. A point to remember about gender and number in Greek is that the feminine plural is only used for groups that are exclusively feminine. Mixed masculine and feminine groups are always referred to with the masculine plural.

Pornos, porne - A prostitute. The Greek root comes from the verb "to sell." In the New Testament, this term appears to have two closely related meanings. One is as the equivalent of the Hebrew zanah, as in "Tamar has been playing the harlot." (Gen 38:24) It was with sense of harlotry that the Pharisees protested that they were not illegitimate children in John 8:41. In 1 Tim 1:10 it is translated "adulterer" in the Hebrew sense when normally moichos is the proper term for an adulterer. Since moichos also appears in our list here, "adulterer" is not the likely meaning. The other meaning of pornos is in the proper sense of a prostitute or the patron of a prostitute. Because in the New Testament, the prohibition of prostitution is paired so often with the prohibition of eating meat sacrificed to idols, it is specifically referring to temple prostitution. The NIV translation of this word as the generalized "sexually immoral" seems untenable here and in every other verse where it occurs.

    Eidololatres - An idolater, a person or thing offered or dedicated to an idol.

    Moichos - An adulterer or paramour.

    Malakos - Soft.

    Arsenokoites - A slang term, this word only appears three times in Greek literature (here, in a commentary on this verse, and in 1 Tim 1:10). It probably meant a homosexual or a pederast. The majority of homosexuals in the Roman world were pederasts so it is difficult to determine whether it refers to the homosexuality part, the pederast part or both. In 1 Tim 1:10 it is translated as "perverts," a rather ambiguous word.

    Klepton - A thief.

    Pleonektes - A defrauder, greedy (in the active sense of taking what you don't deserve).

    Methusos - A drunkard.

    Loidoros - A reviler. A verbal abuser.

    Harpax - A robber or rapist. The "extortioners" of the KJV is probably better than the "swindlers" of the NIV, for extortioners tend to use force to take what they want, rather than the indirect methods of swindlers.

This list is related to that in chapter 5 verses 9-11. There the NIV lists "the sexually immoral (prostitutes), greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards, and swindlers."

The lists in 5:9-11 and 6:9-10 are bracketed by two discussions of "sexual immorality." One, in 5:1, discusses an instance of incest: "A man has his father's wife." The other, in 6:15-20, discusses joining the members of Christ's body to a prostitute. While the NIV translates both these passages as referring to "sexual immorality," the Greek refers to prostitutes. This is in obvious reference to the fact that at Corinth the worship of Aphrodite fostered prostitution in the name of religion. At one time 1,000 sacred prostitutes served her temple. This is a large number for city of about 650,000 people. Approximately one out of every hundred women was a prostitute.

In this context, it is a little difficult to figure out what kind of "soft" people are being talked about. Many translators seem to assume the first half of the list deals with sexual sin and the second half with other kinds of sins.

At this point it helps to enlarge the context. Verses 7 and 8 provide an introduction to verses 9 and 10, where the word adikoi gives the pivot to connect them.

"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged (adikeisthe)? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong (adikeite), and you do this to your brothers. Do you not know that the wicked (adikoi) will not inherit the kingdom of God?"
(1 Cor 6:7-9a, NIV)

Now we can see that this is not a random list of ten kinds of sinners, but ten groups of people who might be sued for wronging someone. How then, might we translate these groups as the victimizers of others?

The first two groups are people who purport to buy or sell something that they cannot. Prostitutes are sellers of "love." But the one kind of love they can't sell is "true love." In essence they take money for something they can't give. The relationship between the prostitute and his/her client is mutually harmful. Idolaters or those involved in idol worship, try to buy and sell favor with the gods through gifts and sacrifices. Much of religion today is still idolatry in this sense. The sellers of heaven preach a religion of obeying the law instead of telling people of the grace that God has provided through the death and resurrection of Jesus.

The next three groups are those who gain sex by force or persuasion. Adulterers are those who have illicit sex with married people. Pederasts are child molesters. Between these two "soft" may mean the seducers of unmarried people. Here is recognition of the truism: "Seduction is the subtlest form of rape." In this context, the interpretation of "soft" as being the Casanova's and Don Juan's of the world, makes sense.

The next two groups steal, either directly or by persuasion: thieves and defrauders or swindlers.

The last three groups show violence to others. Drunkards are those who become violent from alcohol. Revilers are verbal abusers. Slanders use words to harm peoples reputations. In either case, they do it out of hate. Spouse abusers, child abusers, and any who commit hate crimes would also be condemned here. Robbers and rapists use violence for gain.

So a possible translation of this passage might be:

"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and wrong, and you do this to your brothers! Do you not know that wrong-doers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sellers of "love," nor the sellers of heaven, not the seducers of the married, of the unmarried, or of children, neither thieves nor swindlers, and not those violent from drink, from hate, or for gain will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Cor 6:7-10)

This interpretation places this passage within the main theme of 1:10-6:20 where Paul is arguing against the divisions that have grown up in the Corinthian church. "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." (1 Cor 1:10) "For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly?" (1 Cor 3:3) "The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement." (1 Cor 2:15) "If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgement instead of before the saints?" (1 Cor 6:1) "The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already." (1 Cor 6:7) An echo of this is in 2 Cor 12:20, "I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder."

Based on modern exegesis, this verse has nothing to do with ->-bleeped-<- at all. It's about the dangers of divisiveness in the church.

(c) Copyright 1999 Elisabeth Anne Kellogg, all rights reserved. You are expressly granted permission to copy this article provided you do not modify any portion of the text, including this copyright notice.

Thanks for linking this..

Lisbeth, thank you for posting that.

You're welcome.

Fascinating stuff regarding translation. Is there an original version of the Bible anywhere that people refer to when making translations?

> Btw, the Saudis are really naughty at doing (imo) tendentious translations of the Quran with heavy footnotes on whatever does or does not coincide with their view of things.

Quote from Lisbeth --

Let us then begin to peel this onion by looking at the meaning of malakos. The following can be extracted from Liddell and Scott [Liddell, Henrey George, and Scott, Robert, revised by Jones, Henrey Stuart, A Greek-English Lexicon With a Supplement, (Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1968), pp.1076f]:

Quote

Malakos has the basic meaning of soft.

of things subject to touch: soft.
A fresh plowed field is a "soft" field; soft, grassy meadow; soft-fleeced; a slow fire is a "soft" fire; marsh water is "soft" water; to sleep "softly" means on soft bedding; to sit "softly" means on a cushion.
of things not subject to touch: gentle; soft, mild.
"Soft" words are fair words; "soft" looks are tender, youthful looks; a "soft" scent is faint, or delicate; a "soft" climate is mild.
of persons or modes of life: soft; mild; gentle; and negatively: feeble; faint-hearted; cowardly; morally weak; lacking in self control;.
"Soft" music is effeminate or tuned to a low pitch. "soft" writing style is feeble. "soft" reason is weak; loose; bodily speaking, "soft" is weakly; sick; to be ill.
------------------------
Here is the definition given by W.E. Vine An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Effeminate - Malakos, soft, soft to the touch (Lat., mollis, Eng., mollify, emollient, etc., are from the same root), is used (a) of raiment, Matt 11:8 (twice): Luke 7:25; (b) metaphorically, in a bad sense, 1 Cor. 6:9, "effeminate,: not simply of a male who practises forms of lewdness, but persons in general, who are guilty of addiction to sins of the flesh, voluptuous.

Where is the Reverend Gene Scott when we need him?

Quote from: Sarah Louise on September 14, 2011, 10:43:10 AM
W.E. Vine An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Ah, yes, William Edwy Vine, an interesting theologian of the Plymouth Brethren. He exposited selected words according to the theological biases of the Brethren movement. I'll stick with the committee of Greek scholars from Oxford University.

Answering the question from a different perspective...

Churches are mostly conservative.  Conservatives don't like change.  Accepting gay marriage requires change. 

One day churches will admit, maybe even apologize, for their bigoted attitude towards LGBT people.  In 2007 the Catholic Church apologized for the injustices suffered by Galileo, when, in 1610, they found him guilty of heresy for saying the earth orbited around the sun and sentenced him to house arrest for life.

Okay, okay, I know.  Just ten years earlier Giordano Bruno was convicted of being a heretic for the same thing and they burned him at the stake and yet they never apologized to him.  But the Galileo apology, it's a start. 

It just takes time.  Conservatives are like that.

Its all about getting people riled up to get out the vote for republicans. Same with the abortion issue.

But the Galileo apology, it's a start.

Little late to help him out much.

The issue was in the background until a Federal Cabinet Minister, Penny Wong and her girlfriend announced they were expecting. Since then it has been a major source of Letters to the Editor.  I see the current opposition therefore as being more about maintaining male power, than about marriage per se,  due to the identity of those leading the charge.
It is interesting that the PM, Julia Gillard  is in a de facto relationship, declining the option of marriage, but is denying that very option to others.

Karen.

It's a lot easier to be a Christian nation when you're not saddled and weighed down with Christian values.

Im doing a Hermeneutic paper for "Paul and the Early Church" on 1 Corinthian 6:9. The New International Version and Common English Version is one of the only translations where they used "homosexual" and "Perverts who behaves like a homosexual" (Respectively).

I found it to be interesting that the Darby translation uses "who makes women of themselves" and the Inclusive Bible uses "pederasts"