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Does passing really matters?

Started by Bird, September 16, 2011, 09:53:09 AM

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jamiejo

Arrrh....Passing Phase: That's the awkward stage of transition. Are you a him or a her?  What do I call you??? 

Sure after spending $65K on my transition and someone calls me he....I'm pissed....at myself!  That means I need to work on something harder.

Just wait to you get into the "Validation Phase".  When you get to the this stage you totally forget the awkward passing phase.

Validation for me this week, mentoring a company in Indianapolis for the week, they had no idea about my transition, the waiters in restaurants pulling out the chair for you, handed the menu first and ordering first....and totally my favorite having the door held open for you.   Gotta love the southern hospitality in Indianapolis!!!

Jamie
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xxUltraModLadyxx

Quote from: Lisbeth on September 16, 2011, 01:28:22 PM
Alright! I'm sick and tired of this pointless bickering over TG vs TS. When you all get marginalized and driven back into the closet because you couldn't cooperate, don't blame me. Goodbye everyone.

here's what i did, i used the ignore feature. i know who those people are, and i think you do as well.

*anyway, if passing truly matters or not is kind of a mystery. i remember before i even started transition, i was so desperate to just be female. i set the bar really low for myself, and i said "i don't care if i live as an ugly female, i just want to be able to wake up in the morning knowing i am one." when i progressed through transition, i noticed putting more pressure on myself to be more and more attractive as i liked in myself. the thing is, there's so much prejudice, that if some people just find out you are transsexual, they will do terrible things. gwen araujo was very beautiful, and that didn't stop her from getting murdered. it makes you think.
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Naturally Blonde

Living in the real world, not a fantasy
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azSam

"passing" is like the holy grail for transitioning transsexuals. Some people will want to attain it at any cost, and some people just don't give a crap. If you're one that doesn't care what people thinks and your free and proud, then just live it up. There isn't anything wrong with living like that; but for some - like me - it's a frightening prospect to live in a world where I don't/can't pass.
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Graverobber9

If you don't pass then you're not a woman. Well, you probably are but people outside of the LGBT community won't see you as such. Sad but true. That's why me and so many other transgendered women want to pass.
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Steph

If you want to keep your sanity, avoid harassment, ridicule, finger pointing, humiliation etc. well passing really matters.  However if you don't mind being seen as a man in a dress then it probably doesn't.

Any TS in transition, and especially if they intend to have a successful RLT/RLE prior to surgery should be very concerned about passing.
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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kelly_aus

Right at this point in time, I'm not so fussed, I'm happy living my life as me.. But I know that as time goes by passing will become more important to me.. I'm a woman, I want the world to see me as one. As that's a little impractical right, I'll do what I can and take it as it comes..

Do random strangers point and laugh? Rarely, and if I happen to notice, I just give them a polite smile and go on with my business..
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Stephe

Do I pass 100%? No idea but I haven't been called sir or he in almost a year except for occasional "slips" from people who knew me for years before, which I understand. I honestly think much of that is due to me getting relaxed talking with them and my voice slipping back to being more male sounding out of my laziness. Something I'm going to work on with a voice therapist.. I think they feel worse about it than I do when it happens. :P

Back on topic, I have never focused on passing, but I do want to look nice and appear to be female. I am not going to be crushed if I am read either. I also have never really experienced this "harassment, ridicule, finger pointing, humiliation" either. Maybe it's like this in other places? IDK, I travel quite a bit and still not seen this.

I honestly feel for the people who have this "Pass 100% or I'll die" mentality and I thank God I don't feel -that- strongly about it. I do make an effort to pass, not going to pretend I don't, but it's not the focus of my life. I don't agree you have to pass 100% on close inspection to be a woman, maybe some people believe you do. At my age of transition, it would be unrealistic to put that on myself as a requirement. If I pass on casual inspection, that works for me.

I still believe a LOT of passing has to do with self confidence. Some of it's appearance for sure but a lot of it comes from within. I do know my GID doesn't bother me anymore and I am VERY happy. If I required myself to pass 100% I'd still be unhappy and not sure I would ever be happy. 

Last thought on this, I know two different TS's who are OBCESSED with passing, have had 100K+ of surgery and plan more. I'm not sure they can ever get to the place I'm at right now. Their GID isn't resolvable due to this obsession and I believe they likely don't pass mainly because they don't think they do. I think people need to mix in a bit of reality when they are setting goals for themselves or they are doomed to staying depressed for the rest of their lives. I do the best I can and after that, just accept the rest.
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Steph

Quote from: Stephe on September 16, 2011, 10:34:07 PM
Do I pass 100%? No idea but I haven't been called sir or he in almost a year except for occasional "slips" from people who knew me for years before, which I understand. I honestly think much of that is due to me getting relaxed talking with them and my voice slipping back to being more male sounding out of my laziness. Something I'm going to work on with a voice therapist.. I think they feel worse about it than I do when it happens. :P

Back on topic, I have never focused on passing, but I do want to look nice and appear to be female. I am not going to be crushed if I am read either. I also have never really experienced this "harassment, ridicule, finger pointing, humiliation" either. Maybe it's like this in other places? IDK, I travel quite a bit and still not seen this.

I honestly feel for the people who have this "Pass 100% or I'll die" mentality and I thank God I don't feel -that- strongly about it. I do make an effort to pass, not going to pretend I don't, but it's not the focus of my life. I don't agree you have to pass 100% on close inspection to be a woman, maybe some people believe you do. At my age of transition, it would be unrealistic to put that on myself as a requirement. If I pass on casual inspection, that works for me.

I still believe a LOT of passing has to do with self confidence. Some of it's appearance for sure but a lot of it comes from within. I do know my GID doesn't bother me anymore and I am VERY happy. If I required myself to pass 100% I'd still be unhappy and not sure I would ever be happy. 

Last thought on this, I know two different TS's who are OBCESSED with passing, have had 100K+ of surgery and plan more. I'm not sure they can ever get to the place I'm at right now. Their GID isn't resolvable due to this obsession and I believe they likely don't pass mainly because they don't think they do. I think people need to mix in a bit of reality when they are setting goals for themselves or they are doomed to staying depressed for the rest of their lives. I do the best I can and after that, just accept the rest.

But if you feel this way I'm not sure I understand the reason you had FFS if it was not to improve your appearance?  You did say way back in March 2011 that it was scheduled for the end of May.

Just sounds a little contradictory to me, but I could be wrong.
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Stephe

Quote from: Steph on September 16, 2011, 11:02:59 PM
But if you feel this way I'm not sure I understand the reason you had FFS if it was not to improve your appearance?  You did say way back in March 2011 that it was scheduled for the end of May.

Just sounds a little contradictory to me, but I could be wrong.

I did say "I do make an effort to pass, not going to pretend I don't" :) It ended up being postponed till late august and I'm VERY glad I did it. I do feel it made a big difference in my ability to "pass on casual inspection" plus I just look better. It was a HUGE boost to my self confidence as well.  I finally feel like my GID has been cured, I see a woman now in the mirror even without makeup where I didn't before. If I do nothing else, I am happy now where I am at with this. There was a lot more FFS surgery I could have done that I elected not too and glad I didn't. I can see small details that some MAJOR invasive surgery could fix, for me I'm not looking to erase any hint of my past.

But I guess the point I was trying to make is: do I pass 100%? I don't feel I do completely but I'm also not going to die if I am read. I see this as the difference from wanting to pass lets say 95% and needing to pass 100%. Does that make sense? I am going for further voice therapy and not sure what else I might do after that. Again I'm not going to pretend this isn't about trying to pass better, I just feel I am realistic about my ability to be 100% without question passable. And being happy that I have gotten to this point with everything.
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MarinaM

I don't know if I previously answered this post, but yes. It matters.


Ah, why? Because I have a name badge that says Emma on it. I see a doctor that would like to see progress, I hate waking up in the morning and doing the "gender reset..." I need to feel comfortable.

That's why it matters.
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Steph

Quote from: Stephe on September 16, 2011, 11:22:09 PM
I did say "I do make an effort to pass, not going to pretend I don't" :) It ended up being postponed till late august and I'm VERY glad I did it. I do feel it made a big difference in my ability to "pass on casual inspection" plus I just look better. It was a HUGE boost to my self confidence as well.  I finally feel like my GID has been cured, I see a woman now in the mirror even without makeup where I didn't before. If I do nothing else, I am happy now where I am at with this. There was a lot more FFS surgery I could have done that I elected not too and glad I didn't. I can see small details that some MAJOR invasive surgery could fix, for me I'm not looking to erase any hint of my past.

But I guess the point I was trying to make is: do I pass 100%? I don't feel I do completely but I'm also not going to die if I am read. I see this as the difference from wanting to pass lets say 95% and needing to pass 100%. Does that make sense? I am going for further voice therapy and not sure what else I might do after that. Again I'm not going to pretend this isn't about trying to pass better, I just feel I am realistic about my ability to be 100% without question passable. And being happy that I have gotten to this point with everything.

Wow if your avatar is your current one, you recovered very nicely and very quickly I might add.  I can see why you don't have to worry about passing.  If it's a pre-ffs avatar I can't see why you needed FFS you look wonderful.  I know if I had FFS and was read I would just die, especially after spending all that money to improve my looks.  Was it expensive, and where did you get it done?
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Stephe

Quote from: Steph on September 16, 2011, 11:32:57 PM
Wow if your avatar is your current one, you recovered very nicely and very quickly I might add.  I can see why you don't have to worry about passing.  If it's a pre-ffs avatar I can't see why you needed FFS you look wonderful.  Was it expensive, and where did you get it done?

TY for the confidence boosting compliment :) I am of the school of thought that passing is 95% from the neck up.

That picture was one week post op.  Looks even better as time passes. All I had done was he feminized my nose. We agreed to leave the bone part alone, narrowed the nostrils (tucked them in from the sides) and narrowed cartilage from mid point to tip from the front view. He gave the profile a convex curve and angled the tip up instead of drooping. That added space between my nose and lips which made my mouth more centered between my nose and chin. That helped my chin a lot and also this made my eyes seem larger. Super happy with the results considering how little was really changed.

The worst part of it was recovering from the 2 hours of GA this required. I felt dizzy and weak for a couple of weeks, feel fine now. Only was on prescription pain meds for about a day post op. MUCH less painful than say wisdom tooth removal. No nose cast or packing, just taped to hold it up until external stitches came out 5 days post op. Took about 10-14 days for irritating inside the nose stitches to dissolve and fall out. It's still healing (but no pain whatsoever) and he said won't see the -close to final results- till 3 months post op (90% swelling gone etc), a year to completely finish healing.

It was done by Dr Lincenburg at http://www.gaplasticsurg.com/ for total cost, including surgeon, all pre-post op visits, hospital fees and anesthesia of ~$5,000 USD. He is VERY friendly/sympathetic to trans patients and the whole staff is very friendly/helpful. I don't think he does the major saw your skull open type FFS surgery but he mentioned he could do a trachael shave or shave down my brow bone, neither are pronounced on me. He initially suggested doing chin reduction, lip lift and plumping/filling but I wanted to just do the nose and glad I did. I don't doubt this other would possibly help but don't feel I really needed it.

But as you said earlier, obviously I care about how I look and wanted to improve my passability.  I probably pass 99% of the time on casual inspection now (was maybe 85-90% before?) but it's still more like 90% when interacting/chatting for a while with someone. Don't really know for sure if they read me or not because no one ever starts calling me sir or acts weird.. Occasionally someone gives me the "I admire your courage, you looks great" which is nice to hear but I could live with them keeping it to themselves :P  The comment I get much more often is "You have a great smile" :))) I only pass about 70% of the time on the phone so I feel working on my voice will improve the interacting passing from 90% back to the 99% casual figure.

But I hope I have made my point that my wanting to pass is different than needing to pass 100%? Getting from 99% to 100% takes a LOT and some people just can't pull it off. If they need to pass 100% yet can't, they will never cure their GID and be happy with themselves. I've known people like that and I feel for them. I feel lucky I can accept less than perfection :))
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Steph

Quote from: Stephe on September 17, 2011, 12:19:05 AM

...  I am of the school of thought that passing is 95% from the neck up.

...

Well Stephe it would seem that passing does really matter to you.
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Stephe

Quote from: Steph on September 17, 2011, 12:27:05 AM
Well Stephe it would seem that passing does really matter to you.

Of course it does. I never said it doesn't matter or I make no effort to. Maybe I'm not expressing myself well.

The point I've been trying to make is I don't -need- to pass 100% of the time to be happy. I sure wouldn't mind if I did but if I don't pass from time to time, it's not going to end my world.

I read people saying things like "I will not accept anything short of passing 100%". That might not be possible for some people and to accept only perfection is going to be setting yourself up for disappointment. Yes some people can pull this off and more power to em. Nothing wrong with striving for it. For me, I am trying to be realistic and accept what I get from reasonable means. I am VERY happy with my life right now but if I required 100% stealth passability to be happy, I would still be searching for peace. I also get that some people need that to be happy, I feel I am lucky I don't.
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Anatta

Quote from: Bird on September 16, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
Well seriously.

Aside from you feeling anwkward with not passing, does it really matters to you and why?

I mean this with things that are really important, such as career or being harassed. I am realising I don't pass 100% and am beginning to gauge people's reactions better now that I am used to going out en femme. I know some folks notice and if you go to a workplace, it is only a matter of time before word spreads, unless if you went through surgical procedures, started HRT on puberty or have been on it for a long ass time. I think nearly all of us went full time before passing always was a reality

Most people I meet don't seen to give a rat's ass about my past if they notice and from the stuff I read here on the forums, Brazil seens to be incredibly transgender friendly. Lack of doctor support aside, things work. I spoke with my superiors about my future and they all agree I wouldn't have any problems even if I didn't pass at all, and since I have many feminine features I should be fine.

So it is like, more a matter of delivering a package that is well put together more than passing 100%. I could have some male stuff on me as long as I don't have a full beard, as a example. Then for the rest, I guess, what is important is BEING confident. Acting confident is not enough. Once those two things are meet, what is the importance of passing all the time? Ins't passing overrated? As long as I can do my job and am not harassed, I don't care about passing, it is pointless.

In a zen buddhist way of thinking, not caring about passing also helps us with passing. Today I was acessing a patient  and he was a person with a lot of anxiety, he also had come in with his nephew. It would be ideal if he was alone for this kind of thing since he had a psychiatric problem, but we were in a general practice environment at public health care so the consultation went with her in my office. Anyway, since I'm under the supervision of a male doctor and am not a graduated doctor yet, and since all nouns in portuguese have female and male counterparts, the patient's companion keep saying she wanted to ask the doctor(male) for this and that medication. I had no way to know if she was referring to me or to my superior.

This is a situation I coud have went "oh my god, I was clocked, and at work". But for once I processed a different line of thought. I thought I was a girl, and if she was referring to me she would be saying doctor(female). So I told her "You are in consultation with me, and if you want to discuss exams or medications you have to do so with me". To this, the patient told his nephew "Yes, we are not in consultation with Dr. Random Name, we are with her"

So what I mean is, I don't pass 100% by looks, absolutely not, but it seens to me that dropping this issue just lets me pass a lot more often. I could have so not passed in that situation because of something that person said, but then all of sudden I realised it was just my self-steem issue playing tricks on me.

Girls, what exactly is passing and why is it so important? Why do we care so much about it? Why can't we be proud of being TG and just BE the women we are, even if we are clocked?

Hola Bird,

::) To 'blend in' and be treated as your affirmed gender is I believe the wish of 'all' those born with a transsexual condition [I use the term transsexual condition so has not to confuse this with  the trans-androgynous and gender queer  members who for whatever reason have no wish to 'blend-in' in the same way those with-or who have suffered from the 'transsexual-condition] ...


However I think the most important thing for all trans-people is 'self acceptance'...Once one as mastered the art of 'self-acceptance' they can work on developing coping skills should they be unfortunate enough [once fully transitioned] to find their wish not coming true...

Just my thoughts ...But I could be wrong...

Metta Zenda :)



"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Stephe

Quote from: Zenda on September 17, 2011, 01:25:44 AM
To 'blend in' and be treated as your affirmed gender is I believe the wish of 'all' those born with a transsexual condition

However I think the most important thing for all trans-people is 'self acceptance'...Once one as mastered the art of 'self-acceptance' they can work on developing coping skills should they be unfortunate enough [once fully transitioned] to find their wish not coming true...

Very true. I feel once you have accepted yourself, the details of passing can be worked out. Sorta like if you aren't self conscious then these details aren't as obvious. For me, I do better at dealing with things one at a time too instead of trying to shotgun the whole mess. It's less overwhelming that way. I think a lot of the depression comes from being overwhelmed, EVERYTHING can't be resolved in a day.

But I also did live through a phase of being an obvious gender queer and it is nicer to be on the other side of that phase (for me). I honestly believe though living full time as a gender queer thickened my skin about this so now IF I am read I don't panic. I was read 100% of the time and didn't die or get mauled, being read once a week or so is nothing :P   If I can go about my daily life knowing EVERYONE is going to read me as a TG 100% of the time, the idea of "only" passing 90 or 99% of the time doesn't create a "OMG what are they gonna do!!" response. I know from my past experience they aren't gonna do anything.
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Bird

I'm learning a lot from your posts Stephe, thank you for sharing.
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Christy Edwards

U R soo right Stephe....Self respect and confidence is huge. I go out practically every day, and some days my confidence is not where I want it to be. I know the more u feel u pass, the more confidence u have. For me anyway. A yr and half on HRT, and I still
have my times.
The great thing with me is I do like me now, when there was a time, I didnt....
Hugs to all.........Christy
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RhinoP

You're basically saying that it doesn't matter if you have some male traits, but then you specifically point out that you could not have a beard. What makes a beard different than an extremely prominent brow bone that practically looks like an antler ( ex. - http://www.trailer-clip.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Conan-the-Barbarian.jpg ), or a nose so huge and Rhinophymous that it'd be impossible to find on a female face (ex. - http://findreallove.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/huge-nose.jpg ), or a jawline so extremely square and rugged that Fred Flinstone would pass better? (ex. - http://www.rockaroundthecock.com/pics/perfectguyz/pgross/ross1.jpg )

Because I have every single one of those traits in exact form that I just provided examples to, and when you actually have those types of traits all on one extremely androgenic face, you actually learn how difficult it is to function in society as a woman when no amount of primping or posturing can make your face look like an "equal picture". Forget ever being beautiful, I can't even create an overall "together" image without looking like one of those burly drag queens; I hate that type of look. I get so much more discrimination than most here do, especially at my age where passing is the difference between having friends and a social life or not, and I'd love anyone to live a day in my shoes. Compared to such masculine facial features like mine, a beard is quite female.

It's why it's utterly stupid for anyone to stand against FFS, it's the exact same thing as shaving. If anyone is against FFS, they should prove it by not shaving; hair is "natural", after all. If someone can shave hair follicles off their face, then I can shave bone off mine! Basically, Transpeople who already pass well (and have mostly female features) swear up and down that confidence is all it takes, but I have never heard a non-passing Trans say this. Every single time, it's always a person who, by many standards, is able to convey womanly emotions with a softer, brighter face. All the ugly Trans stay couped up indoors or just don't have a social life, or are so old that it's the age where men and women start looking alike anyway, and I don't know, I'd love to meet one very young, extremely burly MTF who swears "I'm confident and that's why no one has ever discriminated against me."
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