Link

I do have a few questions though. Where in the Bible does it say being a transsexual is a sin? I honestly cannot remember any references to transsexuals at all. And for those that say it was not considered, remember Ecclesiates 1:9-11 where it says there is nothing new under the sun.
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Show me where it is denounced or called an abomination or ridiculed. It is not there. If you say God did not discuss it so as not to confuse people, then please tell me what is being described in Ezekial. That book is the most confusing I have ever read.

as an atheist, i can't speak for everyone, but i dont believe in the concept of sin. i think some things are wrong, in that they [hurt other people], but i dont believe that some things are just wrong on principle if they don't hurt anyone.  transsexualism doesnt hurt anyone; you just do what you have to do because there aren't other alternatives.  i ask the christians, if you save somebody's life...would you consider it a sin?  what about if you save your own life?

Yes I am a sinner....I hold my hands up.

I have defied God by wanting to improve my life and find happiness before I eventually die. Well thats my choice and no one will ever tell me that it is wrong.

I have never read the bible and never will,like Katia, I am an atheist mainly because I dont believe with all the poverty, war, murders and disasters that befall this world there is any kind of supreme being.

Beside you can comit murder , repent and be a born again Christian, I am a born again woman.

Buffy

Quote from: Buffy on March 09, 2007, 01:50:21 AM
Yes I am a sinner....I hold my hands up.

I have defied God by wanting to improve my life and find happiness before I eventually die. Well thats my choice and no one will ever tell me that it is wrong.

I have never read the bible and never will,like Katia, I am an atheist mainly because I dont believe with all the poverty, war, murders and disasters that befall this world there is any kind of supreme being.

Beside you can comit murder , repent and be a born again Christian, I am a born again woman.

Buffy

yeah!

TSism doesn't seem to be specifically covered, so when I'm condemned by my baptist friend it's usually for less-specific things like "God doesn't make mistakes" and "defiling the body gave you."

Another christian explained to me that God has defined some fairly specific roles for men and women, roles for which it is sinful to cross. And since they don't believe our gender identity is seperate from our physical sex, if we transition and begin functioning as women, to them we're still men now PRETENDING to be women, sinfully adopting women's roles.

I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"

Kate

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"

Kate

Uhhhh, so I won't have to listen to jerks like you dishing out the sort of diatribe you are now spewing?  Duh!

Cindi

LIT,

There is no direct prohibition of transsexualism, however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".

I did however find this.

Quote from: Mathew 19-12

Mathew v 19-12

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

This however seems to condone what we do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
"God doesn't make mistakes"

Right, he made me female on purpose.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM"defiling the body gave you."

However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
Another christian explained to me that God has defined some fairly specific roles for men and women, roles for which it is sinful to cross.

Which is why we must now stop sinning and by being in male roles and go back to our female roles.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
I also hear "you just know when something is a sin, God is trying to tell you it is - why else would you feel so ashamed about it, why did you feel a need to hide this?"

Hiding it was the sin.  You felt so ashamed about hiding it because hiding it was wrong, that you had to finally stop hiding and be who you really are.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 10, 2007, 02:58:12 AM

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM"defiling the body gave you."

However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.
Melissa

Or... fixing a large nose, small breasts, plumping lips, sucking the fat out of your gut, or ironing out those facial wrinkles.  How could I resist?

>
Cindi

As a Christian, I think that God loves all of us equally.  Does gender/sex matter to Him? absolutely not!  He's the father of love and does not pay attention to trivial things like male, female, TV, TS or whatever.  He's a supreme being, and as such he behaves.

tinkerbell

I think that God did make a mistake.  Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven.  So she made us.



Cindi

(tongue in cheek-  you fellas are in there too somehow... I just need to do lunch with god next week to find out what she had in mind for you)

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
I think that God did make a mistake.  Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven.  So she made us.



Cindi

Aw!  I could just hug you and kiss ya! 

tinkerbell

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
....however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".

I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws.  I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.  I don't know if that's true but since the rest of chapter 22 is ignored, I'm not going to worry to much about verse 5.

And as for any Bible verse that condemn's transsexualism, I'm not aware of one.

Bev

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM

Quote from: Mathew 19-12

Mathew v 19-12

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. 

This however seems to condone what we do.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

I forgot about that passage! Thank you!

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 06:25:12 AM

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 10, 2007, 01:11:29 AM
....however Deuteronomy 22-5 prohibits women from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a man" and men from wearing anything that "pertaineth to a woman".

I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws.  I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.  

Beverly Ann,

I found the same information online posted by a rabbi.  My thought is that if anyone is going to know the Old Testament, it would be a rabbi!  Besides, the early Hebrews often disguised themselves as women to infiltrate a town.  If it was prohibited, the early Hebrews would never have crossdressed - regardles of the reason.

Quote from: Kate on March 10, 2007, 12:11:08 AM
TSism doesn't seem to be specifically covered, so when I'm condemned by my baptist friend it's usually for less-specific things like "God doesn't make mistakes" and "defiling the body gave you."

Kate

Kate,

I got this from my brother & his wife when I came out to them.  There is medical evidence coming out now showing that transexuality is a physiological rather than a psychological condition.  I know that doesn't matter for most of us, but it was important for me - maybe its because I am the child of a psychiatrist.

I look at my transexuality as a gift.  Who better to be a mediator and peacemaker than someone who has walked both sides of the sexuality line?

Chaunte

I really enjoyed reading this. I'm glad that Elizabeth brought up about  Deuteronomy 22-5, because a lot of people use that verse as a reference against us and what we do. But I really enjoyed reading Beverly Ann's comments to it. Now here's a tottally different angle: The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring. These are just my thoughts though . . . But as for it being a sin, all that we are doing is expressing an inner feeling from ourselves. Tell me where lies the sin in that?

Gina

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
I think that God did make a mistake.  Yes, she decided too late that she would someday regret not having more women in heaven.  So she made us.

I LOVE that explanation.

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 10, 2007, 06:25:12 AM
I always love it when someone (Not you Elizabeth) throws Deuteronomy 22-5 at me as a verse to condemn crossdressing. I always ask if they have read the entirety of chapter 22 and start asking why they haven't followed the remainder of the laws.  I'm no expert on the Old Testament but some rabbinical scholars as early as the 13th century have stated that 22-5 was to keep men from disguising themselves as women and sneaking into the womens tents and to prevent women from putting on armament to fight the enemies of the Hebrews.  I don't know if that's true but since the rest of chapter 22 is ignored, I'm not going to worry to much about verse 5.

And as for any Bible verse that condemn's transsexualism, I'm not aware of one.

If you go back and look at the original translation (I did), if memory serves me correctly, it actually only talks about women not wearing a man's sword or clothes.  It actually doesn't talk about men wearing women's clothes.  That was a mistranslation.

Melissa

That is a Scripturally indefensible position and I have a very good conceptual and working knowledge of the same.

From the standpoint of a thinking woman and a Christian, the pitifully weak attempts made by many to mis-apply Scripture to 'prove' that TS is in reality, abomination and sin, are intellectually disgusting and spiritually appalling.

There is simply nothing in Scripture that condemns "neurological mis-wiring".

Did any of us ask for this???

I know that I sure didn't stand in line at the local K-Mart, trying to acquire it.

Their pitifully selfish and subjective analyses and blindly adhered to mis-applications are indeed, intellectually and spiritually 'deficit' and in reality, abstractly, are a manifestation of blind hatred and rank prejudice.

Quote
The Old Testement was written to install laws upon the people, and that was done before Jesus Christ was born. After Jesus Christ was born, we moved into the New Testament, for which I feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament, so what was written has no barring.

Gina,
By my understanding you are correct.  But that still doesn't stop people from using it to condemn.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 10, 2007, 03:37:41 AM
(tongue in cheek-  you fellas are in there too somehow... I just need to do lunch with god next week to find out what she had in mind for you)

(Also tongue in cheek)  Hmmm, maybe the opposite of Islam.  Instead of 70 virgins (or whatever the number is) you martyrs get 70 guys? 
Shut up Beverly.
OK, I will.

GD&R
Bev

Quote from: Melissa on March 10, 2007, 02:58:12 AM
However, they can condone somebody surgically correcting some birth defect such as a hernia, cleft pallate, and heck, even giving a baby a circumcision.

No, see it was explained to me "that's different. You may have been born with this urge or feeling, but it's no different than the urge to lie, cheat or steal. It's evil and sinful, which is why you feel ashamed to tell people about it. Just as with all sinful impulses, with God's help, you can resist giving in to it."

They do tend to get confused about why it's OK to wear eyeglasses and such. If nothing else, it's not SINFUL to wear the glasses, but they seem pretty stuck when it comes to explaining why it's OK for them to correct how God made them. It seems like as long as the correction itself isn't sinful, you can contradict how God intended you to be.

I don't know, I don't get it, I'm just trying to understand them so I can hopefully avoid being killed for being an "abomination" and all.

Kate

Ooooooooooh Lordy!! say it ain't so!! For I am a sinner!! Between listening to that satanic metal music and being TS I am surely condemned to the fires of Hell! LOL NOT!!! Come on!! With all of the truly awful things that people do, what is so bad about someone being who they TRULY are? All we want is to be happy AND what we are doing to achieve that happiness is not hurting anyone (well, you know what I mean). So, if anyone tells me that I am a sinner simply because of who I am then I would just BONK them on the noggin and say: NU UH!!