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an off base religion Christianity

Started by Susan, August 09, 2005, 01:11:01 PM

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Susan

This one clip clearly shows how far off the message many churches are. I am not saying all of them however a good number have lost their way.

Quote from: Chuck Shepard's News of the WeirdThe Living Word Tabernacle in Waverly, Ohio, terminated the membership of Loretta Davis recently, according to a July report by WCMH-TV in Columbus, because she had stopped paying her tithe. Davis' contributions ended in January after she was hospitalized the first of 15 times this year for congestive heart failure. The church's founder said non-member Davis could still attend, but Davis' daughter said, "In the time of (her) need, (the church) should be caring, supporting, asking what she needs, help her if she needed help." (When healthier, Davis was donating $60 a month out of her $592 Social Security check.) [WCMH-TV, 7-15-05]

It's sad and do these people really think that either Jesus or the Christian God would approve of their actions. I think not. Too many churches have become places for people to go solely to show off their position and status in the community. It shouldn't be. I have spoken many times about churches here which own whole city blocks. Something I find morally and ethically wrong. Instead of building such a large facility why not instead help the less fortunate n the community. Oh wait that goes against Republician and religious conservatives principles. Give them a hand up not a hand out.  What a crock.  Jesus would have done both.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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  •  

Celia

I suspect they'd do worse for about 30 pieces of silver. :(

-Celia
Only the young die young.
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Del

Somehow I just cannot imagine thousands of people in Aquila and Priscilla's house.
These mega churches that are out for money sicken me.
So do small churches out for money.
To the extent of the example Susan gave.
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veronica nickie

I find it interesting when a rich young ruler asked Jesus what he should do as he felt he had fullfilled all in the law.  Jesus said sell all you have and give it to the poor.  Is it not interesting Jesus did not say give it to my ministry?  We could debate tithing as belonging in the New Testament or not, we could not debate what Jesus said three times in the upper room, this new commandment I give you, love one another as I have loved you.  I do not know if the leader of this church is a bible believer or not, but they are in great danger to treat one of God's kids this way.  Their leader and perhaps others a far far from a bible based life.
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tekla

I always found it slightly odd that god needs cash so much.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Del

I think that many of today's so-called preachers have forgotten that it is a calling and not an occupation.
A true minister should live for preaching. Not preach for a living.
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Joelene9

  There has been churches like this in the past and still will be.  And there are some churches and synagogues with a strict tithe that will help but not penalize those members in need.  Charity begins at home.  I went to churches that had the give by your heart.  All of those are still solvent.  Some of those, the minister has a day job. 
  Joelene
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tekla

It's a basic tenant of a lot of American Protestantism (referred to often as The Prosperity Gospel) that having money is proof that god likes you, and being poor is proof that god hates you.

So I don't think this is 'off-base' at all.  Pretty common really.  Do you really think that Republican Jesus likes poor people?  That's just some liberal myth.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Amazon D

The Time Between the Lights

Twilight is the time between the lights. The bright light of the sun is fading, and the shadowy light of the moon and the stars is taking its place. Night is coming. It's dusky then, when shapes and dangers are indistinct. In the early church, it was the time of transition from the fervor of the first days, as seen in the community in Jerusalem described in Acts 2 and 4, to the complacency and worldliness a generation later.

A "good" example of this is the Corinthian church. In his first letter to them, Paul addressed very serious problems, grave lacks of wisdom, and a shameful example of immorality such as would make even the Greek world of that day blush. But at least he had the confidence to deal with the problems in the belief that somehow they still had the same Lord.1

By the time he wrote his second letter to them, he wrote in fear and trembling that they may have already been deceived by the Serpent of old, the devil. His ministers among them masqueraded their true nature and real intentions so well that Paul called them "super apostles."2 His words to the Corinthians were full of irony concerning how well they bore deception and even received another spirit:

For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

This did not happen all at once, but the light of Messiah, which was His love dwelling in a people who loved as He loved,3 was fading fast. The signs were everywhere for those who had eyes to see, and were recorded for our benefit so that we would not be deceived in the same manner. Another "light" was filling the church. The Savior had already spoken of this light in Matthew 6:

But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 6:23-24)

Despising the Savior began in personal compromise; "little" things crept in so subtly and slowly that it was hard to see what was happening. In comparison to the gross sins of the world, things like failing to confess their sins, neglecting their children, and resisting their leaders were not very noticeable. In time, however, these things would lead to outright challenges to even the apostles' authority.4 They would end up enthusiastically serving mammon. But right away it led to something not so obvious — the loss of spiritual confidence on the part of many.

This led to the loss of their outspokenness in the assembly, where once all were speaking and all were prophesying.5 They had once lived in the reality of what would later be called the "priesthood of all believers" where each one had the freedom and the grace to help the other, to speak in the gatherings, to evangelize, and even to prophesy. That priesthood was fading away in the face of the little acts of compromise and cowardice. In its place, another more exclusive priesthood was arising. These were the Nicolaitans,6 the men who presumed to speak for everyone; they made it increasingly clear that no longer was everyone welcomed to speak up and share their revelations and their concerns.

Without this confidence to speak, however, an event of great, even cosmic significance took place. Cosmic means pertaining to the entire universe, inconceivably extending in space or time. Yet, it passed very quietly and was largely unnoticed except by the sensitive few.

Messiah ceased to be the head over their house.

This happened one community at a time, as the infection spread, until the lampstands7 — the light of revelation from the Father — were extinguished in the entire church:

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6)

The word translated confidence meant what they no longer had – "freedom in speaking, unreservedness in speech, open, frank, free and fearless confidence."8 At the same time, the sheep were being beaten down and oppressed by self-seeking shepherds, as the Master had warned would come.9 Paul said that after his departure, "savage wolves" would arise among the leaders, leading a following after themselves. Both of these prophetic warnings were fulfilled by men like Diotrephes, in 3 John,

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. (3 John 1:9-10)

What would these proud men, so bold as to speak maliciously against the apostles, say to the sheep? But the destructive, intimidating, and silencing effect of their words we don't have to imagine, for history records the silence that soon settled upon the churches. It was settled practice by 150 AD.10 Soon the speakers needed special garments to set them off from the common people. Naturally, they chose not the Biblical sign of purity and a good conscience — white robes — but just the opposite.

The Outward Sign
Outward signs are used for many reasons: to point the way, to warn, even to mock. In the Scriptures, white garments are the clothing of the Bride of Messiah and a figurative sign of individual purity.

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." To her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8)

You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments... (Revelation 3:4-5)

Stained or defiled garments are just the opposite of white garments, being a sign of a bad conscience. They represent unconfessed sin. Seen in this light, it is not a little surprising that the ancient garments of the clergy — allegedly the godly, spiritual leaders of the congregations — are black. It is just like a neglected conscience that accumulates guilt, becomes stained, and in the end is evil. An evil conscience has reached the point where good can be called evil, and evil good.

The black garments of the clergy (the Nicolaitans) were the outward sign, if anyone cared to notice it, of the evil they represented. It was more than mockery of the good conscience the shepherds were to have in taking care of the flock.11 They were commanded by their Savior to be servants, but soon they became tyrannical monarchs. History even terms them monarchal bishops. And it is not only the Catholic Church that is still organized according to this pattern. In the beginning, they were men who arose from among the elders — as Paul warned would happen12 — to take the prominent, leading role in each church. Eventually, these men behaved like the lords of the Gentiles, mocking, by their earthly power and authority, the very words of the Savior:

"You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:42-45)

So the light among them became darkness, and how great was that darkness!

http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/time-between-lights
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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wendy

#9
Jesus found poor widow to be very generous because she gave pennies.

Rich people are generous if they give millions but it does not cause them to reduce their standard of living.

.......................................

Benchmark God has given us,  is to show acts of love and to learn and teach.

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Amazon D

Quote from: wendy on October 13, 2011, 07:05:58 AM
Jesus found poor widow to be very generous because she give pennies.

Rich people are generous if they give millions but it does not cause them to reduce their standard of living.

.......................................

Benchmark God has given us is to show acts of love and to learn and teach.

ditto  ;)
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

  •  

Gadgett

This doesn't surprise me.

So many churches I've seen are only out for the all-mighty dollar. Sad to say she's better off without them.

But even though I am not christian anymore. I feel sorry that she has to stand alone during these trying time. someone like that had true faith in Jesus and something like that can destroy someone's faith like that. I hope there is a caring and respectful church out there who will pick up and care for this now lost soul.
Scott Kelley: You guys are here on a good day.
Zak Bagans: What's that suppost to mean?
Scott Kelley: The building will talk to you today."
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ToriJo

It doesn't surprise me, either.

I tend to avoid churches that do that, for obvious reason.

Fortunately there are plenty of places who don't do garbage like that (and also don't hate gays, actually feel called to try to make the world a better place, and don't give a darn what you put in the offering).  If God wants a church (or anyone, really) to have money, they will.  But having money is no sign of following God (nor is not having money a sign of not following God, despite some perversion of the gospel).

I have a funny feeling that Jesus would be a lot more concerned about some of the big "christian" ministries today than He would be concerned about whether or not the Episcopalians let a gay man be a priest (although I suspect He would have something to say to those who would try to stop the gay man).  I think a lot of ministries don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible - the one that went on a rampage when He saw how people were trying to cheat people who wanted to worship.  Woe to them.
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SarahM777

I believe that there were 2 lessons for us to learn from when the tithe was established for Israel. (which i believe the second part is overlooked) As the first has been dealt with so often i won't go into here.

The question then needs to be asked what was the tithe to be used for by those who received it? So what are the factors that need to be looked at. Of all the tribes only the Levities could not own land as they were "set apart". So what does this mean? Being a nation that was mostly farmers and herders the Levites had NO way of providing for themselves. First it was a provision for those who were unable to provide for themselves.

Second there was no building as the Tabernacle was a tent.
Other than a small number of items it was rather plain. So what does this mean? As they didn't have a building and it most likely wasn't very large there weren't very many things. (Try putting stain glass in a tent it doesn't work to well) It would also be much easier and simpler to maintain a tent then a building. So then what is the pattern that He is trying to show us?

I believe what He is trying to show us is that we are to put Him first. Second the tithe was not meant for a lot of things but to be blessing to those who were unable to provide for themselves.  Or to put it in other words it was to flow in and out like a river.

Of course i could be wrong.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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veronica nickie

Hi Sarah

I just wanted to say, no you could not be wrong when what you say is so right.  The tithe is indeed a law given for the reasons you gave.  In the New Covenant The Lord does not mandate a tithe of money, he wants all of us and therefore control and direction over all our finances too.  He might ask us to give more or less, and to a church or others, as He leads.  Much harder to try to know what He wants and also hard sometimes to do it.

Veronica
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SarahM777

Hi Veronica,

I do think we also miss a couple of other things. When the tithe was set up at Moses time most of the tithe was produce and livestock not money. And when the tithe was to be brought into the storehouse it meant they had to take time and effort to plant,harvest,sort and then transport it.  To me it means that the tithe was meant to be more than just money. It doesn't take much effort or thought to write a check.
I had such a hard time with just the money part up to about 3 years ago and i was taught a very valuable lesson.  With the business i am in i don't have a lot of cash but i do get a lot of items that can be used in the running of the church but it is not cash. When i went to offer it they turned it down. One it's not cash and 2 they felt it would be to inconvenient to use it if they would use it it would take the running expenses down a bit. As they are older items they do have to be made so they can be usable now but part of it was is that i would take the time and effort to bring it up to current usage. And it,s not only with that but i can get other business items at discount because of the volume. 
I am thankful that He sent someone to me who could use it. It seems crazy but when i started giving it to him to use it or to get things that was needed for his ministry God took and multiplied what i was able to do even though it's not money.
It came out of what God had given me. I have more joy and peace than i ever had with just giving money. He had to take my thinking and take it out of the little bitty box that restricts us from truly giving from the heart.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
  •  

Chloe

Quote from: tekla on October 13, 2011, 01:28:05 AM
It's a basic tenant of a lot of American Protestantism (referred to often as The Prosperity Gospel) that having money is proof that god likes you, and being poor is proof that god hates you.

Marx was right - religion IS the opiate for the masses 'cause we certainly can't afford any GOOD DRUGS at all! Know where the "Virgin Mary" myth really comes from? Jesus and Joseph, his burned out and overworked "dad carpenter", were too ashamed to admit . .

Mom really was a feminist whore!
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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tekla

Actually we put a real post-modern interpretation - combined with almost the entire Pantheon of Catholic Sexuality (as weird as any fifty fetishes) wrapped up in the image and definition of one woman* - of 'married' in and on the whole virgin birth deal.  We forget that through most of history marriage was something that took place after the girl began to show, it really formalized something that had already taken place.  It was not a blessing and licence as we see it today.  And 'virgin' is almost certainly mistranslated into the modern 'never had any knowledge' of sex, from the older notion of a very young girl of adolescent age who was not yet a mother.  To quote Oprah them people were not 'Poor', they were 'Po' and no doubt, back in the 'hood in Nazareth, everybody knew that Joesph was hanging on Mary, and that Mary had Joe's bun in the oven.  That stuff is 'Twas ever thus.  Gossip is not exactly a modern invention.  Matter of fact before TV and all that the only way people had to entertain themselves was each other.  And I've seen towns built in that era, and man let me tell you they are close up on each other - everyone knew what everyone else was doing.     


* - Actually give the Catholics props for maintaining the only bit of goddess worship left in the West.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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veronica nickie

Hi SarahM777

I like that a lot, when Jesus said love one another that meant so much more than sit there and smile at one another, like do something about it.  You did, and with the love, peace and joy flowing in your heart you know you pleased The Lord !
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SarahM777

#19
Hi Veronica,

I sometimes think that so often we only take things that Jesus said on the surface and we never get into the "heart"of what He was saying. Or to put it another way we don't want to get out of the shallow end of the pool. We so often miss how  wide,deep and high His ways are to ours.

Take the parable about the good Samaritan. It is so much richer than just what's on the surface. Most of us know that it's about who our neighbor is suppose to be. Jesus takes and expands on it so much that we miss the deeper message. To me it has more to do with the example He uses. First the only person who evens stops is the Samaritan. Samaritans and Jews had at best an animosity towards each other at worst it could be surmised they were possibly enemies. So what does the man do. He stops,does first aid,covers him and them places him upon his own animal. Now it is possible that it could be implied that it was possible that the Samaritan was a merchant and was traveling with a fully loaded beast of burden. If so that would mean that in order to place the man on his animal he had to leave some of his things behind,if not it means that the Samaritan was riding along and now he is being inconvenienced,so to say by having to lead his animal instaed of riding. He gets to an inn and hands the inn keeper some money to take care of the man's needs and not only that he tells the inn keeper to do what he must to meet the man's needs. To me it is implied that he knew the innkeeper as he goes so far as to say what ever the man needs put it on his tab so to speak and he would cover it on his return.

Or to look at it from a different angle you have a man that gave out of his time,possessions and comfort to meets the needs of another that was not a friend. It was not forced or commanded but came from his heart.


Something else to think about the Samaritan didn't just take care of the needs the man had on the day he met him but he also provided for the near short term and than also the longer term needs till the man could get back on his feet.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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