It would seem that lately many people have brought to light that transition is "selfish". While I do not disagree that it is a selfish thing to do, I would think it would be more selfish than suicide. In transition you rely on others much more, disrupting their lives permanently on a daily basis while they have to look and deal with you, where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so, possibly thinking you were just a sad and crazy mixed up individual and probably better off. They may think that for their own selfish reasons, happy that you didnt drag them through the transition process and spared them the embarassment as well as yourself.

I've heard arguments on both sides that make sense and I have written things down in a list and it seems that suicide wins hands down everytime as far as being less selfish. Now I agree they are both very selfish acts but dying seems to be the least selfish. I would like to ask the members here to provide reasons why transition is less selfish than dying.

Who is being more selfish? Society (family and friends) by stopping you from doing what you need to be happy, or you by ignoring those you have obligations to and transitioning?

What's wrong with being selfish?

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on March 12, 2007, 01:26:02 PM
In transition you rely on others much more, disrupting their lives permanently on a daily basis while they have to look and deal with you, where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so...

Yup. That's pretty much it.

Transition:
- Wife wastes a couple more years with me, trying to find the justification to leave me without feeling too horribly guilty for it, losing her chance to have kids
- In the meantime, I drain our bank account for therapy, HRT, FFS and SRS
- Mom continues psychotherapy to try and deal with my oh-so-traumatic issue
- Dad tries to support mom
- Work deals with harressment issues, builds me a special bathroom
- I make a dozen or so complete strangers very uncomfortable every day simply by existing and doing daily things

Suicide
- Wife gets a lot of money and can almost retire
- Wife already lost her husband, so although it still hurts, it's more like losing a good friend (who betrayed her terribly). She can deal. She moves on now, while there's still time, marries, has a great sex life and the kids she always wanted
- Parents would be fine. My mom would have a juicy tragedy to need more therapy for, rather than an embarassment to explain
- Work hires a normal replacement not requiring special accomodations or policies. Cheaper. No special issues or problems.

Hmmm.

You are right.  Suicide has the least impact on those you love. I went through this argument with myself so many times. Logically, it seemed the best of the options. I tried to kill myself three times.  In earnest. It didn't take.  So the world is stuck with me.

Cindi

Quote from: Kate on March 12, 2007, 01:51:53 PM
Suicide
- Wife gets a lot of money and can almost retire
- Wife already lost her husband, so although it still hurts, it's more like losing a good friend (who betrayed her terribly). She can deal. She moves on now, while there's still time, marries, has a great sex life and the kids she always wanted
- Parents would be fine. My mom would have a juicy tragedy to need more therapy for, rather than an embarassment to explain
- Work hires a normal replacement not requiring special accomodations or policies. Cheaper. No special issues or problems.

You think those are the only people who would be affected?!?!  Hello!!! What about us too?  I'm certain everyone here would be mourning if you were to kill yourself.  Do you have any relatives or siblings besides your mom and dad?  People can and do adjust to a transition much easier than they do a death.

Melissa

I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.  This is not a subject to be treated lightly, it is permenant if carried out successfully and very damaging if it is botched or only partially completed.

We are quite often call selfish and self centered by those around us, we are quite often pushed to the limits of self control.

This has nothing to do with being selfish, this has to do with our living or dying.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2007, 02:45:26 PM
I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.

I agree, and I even debated posting what I did with a friend before sending it, but... I'm not being glib about it - this has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I've started a similar post numerous times, yet thought better of it because I didn't want to encourage anyone to do something awful. And yet... if we don't get this stuff out in the open... might that not be worse?

Kate

I am still in 'thought' mode regarding this subject and have been for years.

I am not sure why I have been thinking about this subject for so long without actually making a decision or coming to a conclusion, maybe I am afraid to die, perhaps it's because there are so many variables, so many unknowns, that I can't account for.  I am not sure if religion, morality, or my sensitivity to others are playing a role in my thoughts on the subject, well, I am sure they are, but I am not sure to what extent they are.

Leigh, while I did not always agree with her views, once said that transition isn't anymore couragous then running out of a building on fire is couragous.

It's true enough that it cast a shadow of a doubt on my certainty that I would eventually suicide.

Under that analogy, suicide would be akin to propping your feet up and seeing if anything good was on Television while flames came through the very walls around you.

Transition and Suicide.

The underlying question is whether life is worth living, not right now, but forever more.

If any path you choose, other than suicide, could not possibly make life worth living, than suicide is the only viable option.  However, you can't rely on a decision about the future at any single moment in time existing in the past.  What I mean by that, is that, other than living, there is no accurate way to know whether the future is worth living for; simply put, you would be guessing.

The more facts you have to reach a decision, the more accurate that decision will be.
Facts take time to research and gain.

Incidentally, this is why interpreted languages (vs. compiled languages) are so much more dynamic, however, the tradeoff is that they are slower, they wait until they have more facts during runtime to do variable binding whereas compiled languages bind to memory ... blah, off subject, sorry.

My point was, that this is very similiar.
The more facts you have, the more decisions you make based on those facts, the more accurate your decision will be.  In life, you gain those facts by living and making decisions based on those facts

Now, the second part of the arguement.  Is it more viable and / or selfless to commit suicide vs. transitioning.

It's very difficult to say.

There are very clear tradeoffs to each.

1.
Transitioning (pro):
You are making decisions based on facts you have learned and / or accepted to try and find happiness in your life.  You are still here making decisions and experiencing life and hopefully, learning.

Suicide (con):
You just finished making any future decisions based on, at most, a guess.

2.
Transitioning (pro):
Your loved ones always have the oppertunity to see you, albiet you don't look exactly the same as before, but, as has been said many times, you are still you and they have the option of coming and visiting, or talking to you whenever you or they wish. ie. you aren't gone forever

Suicide (con):
You have eliminated any possibility of your loved ones ever speaking to you or seeing you ever again based on a decision you have made.

3.
Transitioning (con)
You could be ridiculed, mocked, and you could hurt those around you very much.

Suicide (con)
You will hurt those around you very much, granted, you won't have to deal with the ridicule and mockery which is a definate bonus.  But, either through transition or suicide, it's going to hurt those around you.

------------------------------------------

Many of you know my views on this subject.

For now, I am sticking around trying to ascertain whether it is possible that life will get any better than this.
I am still fact finding.  Suicide is, in my mind, much more selfish than transitioning.  That does not mean that suicide isn't the road to discount, it's very personal and you yourself have to find your own answers on the subject.

with love,
Jessica

This is not a rational issue. The rationality of transitioning vs suicide vs stuffing everything and distracting yourself til cancer or a heart attack claims us is not rational. Thinking things through is a good thing.. but IMHO is not the major player in all of this. We don't transition because it's the most reasonable alternative. People don't suicide because it has the most positive aspects. It is deep-down gut stuff. Hard to describe.
My 2 cents.
Blessings, Tara

Quote from: Jessica on March 12, 2007, 03:28:07 PM
The more facts you have to reach a decision, the more accurate that decision will be.

I don't think so, at least not in this case. The darn problem *shifts* as you go, the very context changes as you transition. No matter what you think it's going to be like, you're wrong, lol. Oh sure, you can predict some of the factual, objective things... but you CAN'T predict how you'll feel about them when you get there. That's what is so maddening about this... every day is like a new world with new priorities and perspectives.

The ONLY thing you can really do is TRY it. Transition. See how it goes. See if you can deal with it. Otherwise, it remains a perpetually unanswerable question. At least that was my take on it. I HAD to know, I HAD to try - and see how far I could take it, knowing I may very well not be able to finish. Looking back now, I know I *expected* to not make it... at least not much farther, not past this wall of fear I seem to be being squashed against now. Now that things are becoming more and more real, and I see that I really, honestly am heading into a transitioned life (omg!), it's scaring the heck out of me.

Not because this isn't what I so desperately need (everything so far has been the answers to my prayers), but just the fear of forever being a transsexual in everyone's eyes, rather than a woman... for the rest of my life. I don't know if I could take that day after day...

Kate

I think the first thing you need to ask, and much more important than transition vs. suicide is this:
"What's the goal of <my?> life?"

Do you have a goal?

Is trying to reach that goal selfish?

What are you willing to do to reach that goal?

If someone you care about has a goal and that goal is diametrically opposed to your goal, why should they get to reach their goal, but you don't?  Why should you get to reach your goal but they don't?  Is it possible that you can reach both of your goals together? apart? What's the best decision in regards to that?

When someone on these boards referred to fear, I believe what they meant was the following:
One is terrified of doing what needs to be done to attempt to reach one's goals because of the __________ consequences of the actions required to reach that goal.

Ask yourself if your goal is truely reachable.
For instance, if your goal is to never hurt anyone, ever.
Fairly obviously, you are setting yourself up for misery, because that can't happen.

Once you have a clearly defined goal for your life, it is my belief that you can begin to use analysis to begin asking the more difficult questions you are posing.

Jessica

When I considered suicide it was to "show them" or to "make them feel guilty or sorry" for me. It wasn't selfishness that motivated my thoughts.  It was an ending to punish those who knew me. I finally realized that sentiment had no logic. It had no resolution in MY favor.

When you are in the depths of depression, you can not think clearly. Rationalization is pointless. Thoughtful consideration of the facts does not work. Your bias is overwhelming.

I'm sure that there are many reasons people consider for suicide. In the depths of self doubt, who knows what you can dream up.

But since you are down there, in your hole, thinking, positioning yourself, and wondering, consider that you might be at the bottom. It may be that any small thing can improve your life. Know that it is possible for things to get better. Know that your depression is an illness that you can learn to deal with. Reason that. You can logically tell yourself that you have this illness of depression and you can get better. That logic can defeat depression.

Transsexualism doesn't create the depression. But it does seem that depression and the T walk hand in hand. Transsexualism brings its own challenges to the party. It is the fruitlessness of life as we see it that prompts many of us to build a new ladder and climb out of the hole we are in.  We call it transition.

The logic escapes us. The reality of improvement helps us feel the results of a cause and effect relationship. It is these results that motivates us and moves us forward.

Suicide is a reaction to the external forces we face and live with. It is a reaction to those around us. It is not an act we do for ourselves. So, yes, we are selfish. Moving beyond suicide and its grip is selfish. Pushing positive influences into our lives makes US better. Fulfilling our self realization is a selfish act which moves us beyond the feelings of inadequacy and doubt.

Life is worth living my friend. It is beautiful. I look out my window as I type this and see the velvet fluorescent green of fresh grass covering the hills. The cattle are tending to their calves and birds are singing. It is a moment to cherish. It is a moment of life.

Find the source of your anguish and deal with it. Get medical help if you need. But you must cease the endless thought process of logic where suicide is concerned. It leads nowhere and unfortunately has dire consequences.

Pick yourself up. Enjoy this moment for what it is. And know that you can overcome the obstacles and enjoy life.


Chin up!

Cindi

QuoteI am not sure why I have been thinking about this subject for so long without actually making a decision or coming to a conclusion, maybe I am afraid to die, perhaps it's because there are so many variables, so many unknowns, that I can't account for.  I am not sure if religion, morality, or my sensitivity to others are playing a role in my thoughts on the subject, well, I am sure they are, but I am not sure to what extent they are.

QuoteBut you must cease the endless thought process of logic where suicide is concerned. It leads nowhere and unfortunately has dire consequences.

God, I wish I could stop.

Jessica

Jessica,

Do something. It matters not what. Just do something. Work on your goals list, develop a hobby, go hang gliding. Anything. Put yourself in social situations with real live people around you. Please.

Cindi

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2007, 02:45:26 PM
I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.  This is not a subject to be treated lightly, it is permenant if carried out successfully and very damaging if it is botched or only partially completed.

We are quite often call selfish and self centered by those around us, we are quite often pushed to the limits of self control.

This has nothing to do with being selfish, this has to do with our living or dying.


Sarah L.

While I will agree with this, I will agree with Kate more. This needs to be talked about. For those in this position, it may be good for them to read how those that transitioned got past this part/delima. I cannot imagine very many TS folk not reaching this stage of life at least once.

I'm very intersted in how people rationalised past this point and got onto transition instead of suicide because "sometimes dead is better" (Stephen King Pet Cemetery) keeps bouncing around my mind. Obviously we won't be hearing from those that chose the other path unfortunately, because I would be interested to read or hear how they didnt get past this stage and why they couldn't or didn't rationalise it.

There is no crystal ball to see into the future to see if life will be better or worse than it is now. I do like Kate's plan and that is to at least try, and if successful things will be o.k. If they fail then you always have an out. Its almost genious when thought about in that light. But one must go in trying to succeed, not try to fail or give up hope or chicken out when you are about to be finished....so I think you need to stay the course Kate and at least give it a chance and finish up. Who knows what tomorrow will be like. Instead of playing victim and feeling bad for your bosses redoing a bathroom for you, be grateful and work harder.

I'm still digesting your words Jessica, unfortunately we are at the same stage and although some feel this process is not rational, it must become rational in one's mind before any further progress can be made.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 12, 2007, 04:30:52 PM
When I considered suicide it was to "show them" or to "make them feel guilty or sorry" for me. It wasn't selfishness that motivated my thoughts.  It was an ending to punish those who knew me. I finally realized that sentiment had no logic. It had no resolution in MY favor.

When you are in the depths of depression, you can not think clearly. Rationalization is pointless. Thoughtful consideration of the facts does not work. Your bias is overwhelming.


Cindi

And that is exactly why I would do it right now. To make everybody sorry, to teach them a lesson. In the end they will still be breathing and in a couple of months the tears will stop flowing and life will be o.k. for them. But to transition, wouldnt that be making them pay everyday you are alive?

Years ago I thought of the idea of suicide.  I tried to imagine how much easier it would be just to end it, rather than live life, fight for my life.  I didn't consider that it would be selfish, and it has never entered into my thoughts, much like the way I feel that transition is selfish.  I see transition as something that I must do no matter what, and if I die trying I that as doing something for my life, no one else's, as in the end I will be the one who will be living my life, not my mom or dad, not my children, not my wife, not my friends not my... anyone else.  Of course their feelings were/are taken into account, but in the end it is my life.

I feel that suicide means that you have given up before seeing the results.  Getting the facts is no where near the same as living your life, it means that we have given up hope on life, on transition.  Life is a journey not a destination and the same can be said for transition as it too is a journey, not a destination.

Nope I am who I am, I can't change that and neither can anyone else, and I want to see for myself how my saga actually ends, not imagine how it will end, and do something premature.

Hey but that's me

Steph

Perhaps I can offer my own take on how I have dealt with getting past suicide.  there have been several times so far where I have been prepared to take my own life.  It usually occurred when it appeared a successful transition did not seem to be a possibility.  I felt that the pain and suffering I was to face on the road ahead of me was not something I could face and that I may as well end it early.  In order to get out of this, I have ended up talking to friends (most of them from this forum) and that has helped me past some of the rough spots.  Sometimes the load is too much to bear, but if you let your friends help you, then you can make it.

I have thought about attempting to kill myself before just to show others how serious I felt about this, but for that I would have done some kind of suicide attempt I knew would fail.  I never got around to doing that.

Melissa

P.S. Kate, remember our deal!

Yes, you need to ask yourself what you really want.  Do you want to live as a woman?  Do you just want to die or do you feel it is your only option?  For me, I didn't want to commit suicide, but I felt that I had to in my situation.  Once I realized I didn't have to, I became once again determined to get through this.

Melissa

Exorcism... a variant of that theme was tried on me too.  Guess what. It didn't take either.

Cindi

                I have been to the edge.  It wasn't an experience that included weighing the options and consequences. It was experiencing the "God awful feeling". The unbearable pain and pressure in your brain, heart and soul. The fog of pain leaves no room for thought. It was joy fantasizing about the wonderful calm and painless state that would follow. In the end I realized the pain would continue in the hearts of those that loved me long after it warmly oozed out of me. There is no end for them. It's the cowards way. Moving forward is the answer. Push on.



beth