Quote from: JessicaH on August 24, 2011, 08:17:57 PM
Want to protect the sanctity or institution of marriage for the sake of Christian Family Values? Let's look at what their good book says...


Did Doma make Divorce Illegal? No, but Jesus said, "Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12   
Divorce and remarriage, not part of DOMA.  Hmmmm......

Did DOMA make ADULTRY Illegal? No, but the bible clearly says that it is such a grievous offense and threat to marriage that the penalty should be DEATH.  7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery".  Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death".

I don't understand it either! They just pick and choose what supports their side in an argument! Like the divorce "ruining marriage". I believe most gay people stay together more than a lot of bad straight couples!
And my friend told me there were a LOT of other rules like women not being able to do certain things while on their menstrual period. So does that just not become enforced anymore? It's really hypocritical, i agree.

One of the funny things about society is how it takes prolonged exposure combined with large numbers of humans for a new concept to take hold and become accepted.  The only way any major organization will do an about face is if their bottom line is negatively affected.  But most people need to be beaten over the head for extended periods before they shake their old beliefs and adopt new beliefs.  Common sense, kindness, compassion and decency aren't very effective.

Well, I've actually spoken to a number of people on the opponents' side. It seems like they're as much concerned about their values as they're concerned about the state beginning to legislate church policy. In essence, they're nervous that if federal law grants marital rights to homosexuals then church policies against homosexual marriage will qualify as violations of anti-discrimination legislation. They also feel that the state has no business trying to legislate what they view as exclusively a church issue.

The opponents who are not driven solely by anti-gay bigotry (and believe it or not, there are MANY who aren't) appear to be failing to understand that marriage is a term with two meanings. They're meshing the state contract definition and the theological definition, and they won't hear of separating the two. When I asked Conservative Christians if they opposed giving homosexuals equal access to government benefits, they seemed fairly friendly to the idea of giving equal rights and benefits. But just as soon as the "m" word popped up, they suddenly became all cloistered. I've found that when I suggest that we remove the word "marriage" from all federal and state documents for ALL couples and grant homosexuals access to an identical contract that heterosexuals can get, the idea tends to go over fairly well.

The problem seems to be more one of semantics than ideology, with the exception of the members of the extreme right-wing.

I also speak with alot of christians on this site in particular.
http://www.christianforums.net/

My view based on my conversations on that website is that dispite whatever justifications they try to push, Christians just enjoy hurting pepole. Hence why they are opposed to it. dispite me trying to demonstrate that things in the bible need to be interpreted they all belive their interpretation to be infallable and if the bible tells them to harm homosexuals then they will and they will enjoy it.

I joined their and was completely open and friendly at first posting photos of myself in the "post a pic of what you look like" and told them about myself and my life including my transsexuality I was suprised at first they were friendly and accepting it turns out that they hadn't read what I'd posted in great detail however, listening more to the tone because when they learned about my past the mods forcefully edited my profile to remove the "Female" gender tag, blocked access to most of the forums by tagging me as "non-christian" a group with substantially lower posting priviliages than other users.

Additionally any attempt for me to pry into why they feel the way they do or revealing errors in logic they used in their biblical interpretation was quickly edited as I was "attacking" christianity.

When I discussed incidents where I was subjected to abuse by christians in the past everything I said was deflected away from themselves dispite many of them having the same mindset.

Christian moral code whole heartedly encourages persicution violence and bloodshed it's obvious that those considered more "virtuous" tend to have more violent viewpoints on issues like the death penalty against muslims and war in general...

The more devoutly you follow christianity the more vicious and inhumane you become.

Quote from: pebbles on October 30, 2011, 04:00:19 AM
I also speak with alot of christians on this site in particular.
http://www.christianforums.net/

My view based on my conversations on that website is that dispite whatever justifications they try to push, Christians just enjoy hurting pepole. Hence why they are opposed to it. dispite me trying to demonstrate that things in the bible need to be interpreted they all belive their interpretation to be infallable and if the bible tells them to harm homosexuals then they will and they will enjoy it.

I joined their and was completely open and friendly at first posting photos of myself in the "post a pic of what you look like" and told them about myself and my life including my transsexuality I was suprised at first they were friendly and accepting it turns out that they hadn't read what I'd posted in great detail however, listening more to the tone because when they learned about my past the mods forcefully edited my profile to remove the "Female" gender tag, blocked access to most of the forums by tagging me as "non-christian" a group with substantially lower posting priviliages than other users.

Additionally any attempt for me to pry into why they feel the way they do or revealing errors in logic they used in their biblical interpretation was quickly edited as I was "attacking" christianity.

When I discussed incidents where I was subjected to abuse by christians in the past everything I said was deflected away from themselves dispite many of them having the same mindset.

Christian moral code whole heartedly encourages persicution violence and bloodshed it's obvious that those considered more "virtuous" tend to have more violent viewpoints on issues like the death penalty against muslims and war in general...

The more devoutly you follow christianity the more vicious and inhumane you become.

So said Pebbles to the Christian transsexual. Dear, I realize that you had a bad experience on that forum, but it sounds to me like you just happened upon a gathering ground for a bunch of fundamentalists with their heads firmly up their...well...you know.

The fact is that Christian morality itself doesn't really have a uniform structure beyond the golden rule and the ten commandments. From those two points onward the issue of what is right and wrong becomes hotly debated. Catholicism settled this matter within its own church by naming the Pope as the emissary of God, and therefore the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong. Protestantism has no such figure, and so there are a billion different forms thereof, each with their own idea of what is and is not Christianity. It isn't that there AREN'T people who meet the description you give, it's that not ALL Christians or Christian morality ITSELF meets that description.

Don't believe me? Methodists and Baptists have this wonky rivalry going on in the American south, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland literally SHOT at one another, and so forth. Meanwhile, it's pretty unusual to hear about Quakers or Universalists getting up in arms against other religions, let alone those within Christianity. It's all about the group you run into.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on October 27, 2011, 12:22:59 AM
Well, I've actually spoken to a number of people on the opponents' side. It seems like they're as much concerned about their values as they're concerned about the state beginning to legislate church policy. In essence, they're nervous that if federal law grants marital rights to homosexuals then church policies against homosexual marriage will qualify as violations of anti-discrimination legislation. They also feel that the state has no business trying to legislate what they view as exclusively a church issue.

On the other side, gay and lesbians are concerned about religious organizations getting involved in government legislation.  They have no business getting involved in politics, law and any other government activity, at least not as long as they enjoy their tax exempt status.  I'm sure the gay-lesbian community would be happy to avoid all those phobic churches and leave them alone if they just stayed out of government affairs and stopped sticking their noses into the lives of others.

Religious organizations enjoy a lot of latitude when it comes to violating the requirements their tax exempt status, and it's not because they really aren't violating them.  They should follow the letter of the law and either drop their tax exempt status or stop their involvement in government affairs.

There are at least some of us religous people (I am Christian) who agree that religion shouldn't run government.

Personally I think my church and every other church in the USA should pay taxes.  Jesus was not anti-tax!  (heck, he told people to pay their taxes)  I also think ministers shouldn't have special rights to marry people - either let everyone who meets some basic requirements be able to be an officiant or let nobody but civil servants.  But don't give religion a special place here.  If I want my minister to marry me, let that be simply a 100% religious event, with no civil significance - and likewise let my civil ceremony have no religious significance if you so desire.

The Puritans (at least a significant group of them) had it right concerning marrigage: they established marriage as an entirely civil matter initially in the northeast USA.  They didn't see marriage as a rite specifically discussed as a in the Bible (they saw the Bible talk about marriage, but not commandments about the order of the actual ceremony nor anything that indicated it was a duty of an overseer, bishop, elder, etc), so they kept weddings out of their churches.  If you wanted to get married, you went to the courthouse and didn't pollute the church with your civil contract.  The minister most certainly didn't marry you!  (some also did "bundling" if they wanted to make sure the guy didn't try denying he impregnated the gal - the parents let them sleep together in the daughter's room prior to marriage, so that he couldn't deny the kid was his, putting the gal in the unfortunate position of no longer being seen as an attractive [and valuable financially] mate to anyone)

The Baptists and others in the south had different ideas - that's where the US idea of a church wedding came from, outside of some denominations that view marriage as a religious event (such as the Catholic church).

The idea of the church legislating marriage isn't universal.

And personally I'd just assume to keep politics out of my church period.  I think there are few things less holy, honorable, and good then politics, so I'd rather keep them as far away from the holy, honorable, and good as possible.    It does go both ways.  When the church starts politicking, it gets corrupted.  I'm not the only one that sees it this way, although sadly a lot of US Christians have been basically brainwashed into thinking that God, being all-knowing, would want one of our candidates to win an election!  What a small god they serve. 

That said, some churches will continue to think that somehow God would be pleased if they made the stupid laws rather than letting elected representatives do so.  And I don't think anyone will stop that (and this is hardly unique to Christianity - it happens in all major religious as far as I can tell).  All we can do is speak out against it and make sure to vote for candidates who understand the difference between church and state.  I'm probably a "bad" Christian to some (I try to think!), but so be it!

I don't see any "bad" Christian in that response, in fact it sounds pretty right on.

If you're a bad Christian, then I'm a she-devil wearing the guise of a Christian, because I think you're right on too!

Lisbeth, I'm a transgender woman whose been married for 31 years. I've heard much of the arguments and reasons why the church is against gay marriage. Mercifully, many churches are changing their attitudes about this. Some never will.

Divorce is what is ruining marriage, not gay marriage. I point out that if these folks were so concerned about marriage then why don't they work with couples that are struggling. Concerning DOMA, marriage needs to demonstrated in a constructive and positive way. My spouse and I have had struggles, but we've had many more times of joy and happiness.

I've gone through the scriptures many many times and God does not condemn homosexuality, ->-bleeped-<- or gay marriage. God does condemn inhospitality (the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah), discrimination, and the unconcern for the poor and downtrodden.

Gennee, you make an interesting point.  While Christian groups are out campaigning to "protect" marriage they are completely ignoring saving the marriages that already exist.  Personally, I believe whatever entity performed the ceremony and legally married a couple, that same entity should be the one that will grant a divorce.

If the Catholic Church married you, the Catholic Church should be the one to grant a divorce.  Same goes for every other church.  The only time you go before a judge to obtain a divorce is if you were married by a judge.

I don't get it either.  Homosex couples should have the same opportunity to be miserable as the straight ones

Quote from: gennee on November 01, 2011, 01:14:57 PM
.

I've gone through the scriptures many many times and God does not condemn homosexuality, ->-bleeped-<- or gay marriage. God does condemn inhospitality (the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah), discrimination, and the unconcern for the poor and downtrodden.

genneee take off those glasses and reread Sodom and Gomorrah being nuked because the men were all homosexuals thinking it would be cute to have sex with male angels.

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 02, 2011, 06:26:45 PM
genneee take off those glasses and reread Sodom and Gomorrah being nuked because the men were all homosexuals thinking it would be cute to have sex with male angels.

LOL exactly.  Or read the book of exodous

Hey, Sodom and Gomor'rah weren't destroyed by God because there was gay guys looking to have sex with angels.  They, along with Admah, Zeboim, and Bela were destroyed by a deep space impact on June 29, 3123 BCE.  And that is told in the book of Genesis.

But even if some guys wanted to have sex with angels, isn't that what all guys wish for?

angels are heterosexual male spirited so you saying all guys are homosexual?   

judging by reports from prisons, seminaries, scouts and boys schools that is probably the truth.

First what YOU believe and live like is good. i respect that .
But remember that *groups* are power blocks so the want MEMBERS.
And its a fact that gay and mtf cant make members for them so the are not wanted.
As lovable and good the can be (we stay humans ).

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 06, 2011, 05:34:46 AM
angels are heterosexual male spirited so you saying all guys are homosexual?

A picture tells a thousand words...

lols  but nice lingerie 

Why don't you turn your back to the church?
If a lot of people would do that, they would be begging for coming back, hey...it's their income, and money talks.
Than you can make demands.
If you see the wealth of some churches than you know that the holy word of money is far more important to them than the holy word of the bible.