As I have mentioned before (and I have thought a lot about this issue), passing is EXTREMELY important to me.  I NEED others to see me as a woman and not a transsexual.  At this point in my transition I do pass very well and have actually had to convince people I used to be male when dealing with old business.  I have gotten into some pretty comical situation such as when me and my ex went in earlier this week to file a joint return (I'm slightly smaller than her in pretty much any measurement including hands and feet ...and breasts. ).  The woman just saw 2 women coming in and it took a little convincing.  Usually I have to show legal proof.

Melissa

Hello Mawd.  Just kind of got into the passing feelings going on here.  Of course it depends on your psych and all, but it really does not matter, though there are a few people you don't want to talk to about it.

My own views, after living the last 10 years as Female is that someone is always gonna know.  I started out in work and life right at the beginning.  Some were shocked, but nobody has ever jumped into me about it other then my sister in law and my wife, I was pretty lucky, they are all for me now.

It was rough at first as I made the change and continued to work the same job.  I got looked at a lot, but nobody made any deal to me personally, who knows what they said to each other?  I felt awkward for the first year because of my extordinary bad manners and habits, but in time I cleaned most of that up and felt much better as I did.

These days nobody questions me about my gender out in public and I'm not a fashion queen or any kind of dress monkey.  I can still look a little rough at times as I will still do some hands on work, but at my worst nobody gets upset about it.

I think most of the concern is seeing how some will just get cocky when out and blow it out all over the place, but those that feel and act like the people they want to be get treated pretty much as they would like.

I was an extreamly rough type in my younger years and have had my share of all the bad things that can happen to a person, and I still stand on two cement planted feet in any occassion when I know its what I want, and I know a lot of others the same way.  Passing would be great, but it's something that happens or it don't, you just live your life and let others live thiers and see how it goes.  It's just who you are I guess and thats all there is to it.  If your a woman, others will see you as a woman and thats all I can say about it.

Terri

Hi every one, I thorght I would put me peice in here now. As most of you know Im a pre op, pre HRT, pre theropy, pre dinosis transexual. LOL  . When I came here it was to find awnsers about me and who I am but all I found was questions. So here is my attempt at this one. Passing would be vital because I just want to lead a normal hetrosexual life, if thats going to be possible. If this is going to hurt the transgender movment sorry but I only want to disapeer to only resurface when absolut nesersery.

I will still and allways will come to SP for a chat.
Love it here.

Passing is very important to me.  I'm a woman and I want others to see me as what I am and not as what I used to be (man, transsexual).

 Lucy:

Just saw your thoughts and figured I'd toss in a crecent wrench or two:
If what you want to be is a woman then you have to put a few things in perspective.  You can listen to all the information you wish to about how women look, act, walk, talk and so forth, even get aquianted with the various issues which are top priorities in womens concerns ... All that and so on.  It gets you used to what to expect and thats not a bad idea at all, but its short of actually feeling like a woman.

Pass well enough or not, you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want.  You can't do that just by study.  It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.

It is only be living the life, for real, day in and day out, that you can gain this type of experience in who and what you are.  I live in an area where there are countless numbers of Transsexual,Transgender peoples and see and experience the real life of it all, aside from my own experience.

In my own view, one must simply dive in and learn to swim, from the bottom up to really grasp it and truly learn from it and know exactly who and what you are.  It is hard at first.  I started as a construction worker without any consultation or advice from anybody, and the crap and ?? that occured in the beginning took a year or two to even out, and there were a lot of male emotions going on in me up until a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't trade my life with anyone over it.  Things are fine these days and getting only better as time goes on.

The thing that bothers most males is they will be seen as "soft" and "weak" because of a transition, but in time you learn to handle that and work with it, or just beat the crap out of the offender if it pleases you ....... but as you insides grow, you grow and despite your appearance, it is WHO you are that really counts in this world.

Terri

Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want.  You can't do that just by study.  It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.

Which is precisely why men are always saying they never can understand women.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2007, 04:26:58 PM

Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want.  You can't do that just by study.  It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.

Which is precisely why men are always saying they never can understand women.

Melissa

Then why is it that women ALWAYS seem to understand men?  Usually better than the man does himself.

....Laurie

Precisely simple laurieO:

To most women, men are simply all to consistant in thier behavior and mannerisms.  Little if any controvesy etc. .........

Terri

Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 05:32:09 PM
To most women, men are simply all to consistant in thier behavior and mannerisms.  Little if any controvesy etc. .........

Right.  You could probably right some mathematical formula to predict what a man would do next or how he would react.

Melissa

Quote from: Kate on March 15, 2007, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: HelenW on March 15, 2007, 09:00:24 PM
If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride.  I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me.  The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.

Did you always have this security and strength?

Or is it something you developed along the way?

Intellectually, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my emotions don't seem to take into account the character of the person hurting me

Kate

No, I never had this attitude before I realized I was trans and had to do something about it.  I was timid, even fearful, of others and their opinions and actions towards me.  I tried to hide myself as much as possible because I knew the trouble I could get into by being found out. 

Of course, as I said, I haven't had much opportunity to be in "harm's way" so to speak so I might be full of beeswax but I have realized that I'm the only arbiter of what is right for me.  Others may have their opinions but they are just that, words and ideas that exist in another person's mind.  As long as someone remains nonagressive I'd probably ignore them or just smile at them and move on (quickly!).  They can only hurt me two ways: physically or if I place value in their words.

YMMV. of course (and so may mine) as times and environment changes.

hugs & smiles
helen

Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true.  I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.

Suggesting that anyone who feels differently than you is either lying or deluded hardly seems fair.

Kate

Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true.  I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.

Pass as What !!!!!

"Passing" is important, but is not proportional to "success" in transition. I know "successful" post op TSs who look like the back end of bus ( if that is your definition of passing), but their behaviour and strength of character earn the respect of all around them.

Ruth

If someone wants to pass as a particular gender, great. It's their choice, and I support that. What I want to see though is a world that is truly safe for people to express any gender, already existing, in between or any other combination of their choice. This is beyond activism, I simply want to be myself and be able to live openly as such.

zythyra

Quote from: Kate on March 17, 2007, 02:03:31 PM

Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true.  I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.

Suggesting that anyone who feels differently than you is either lying or deluded hardly seems fair.

Kate

I haven't suggested anything like what you're referring to.  I have only given my opinion and I stand by it.

Quote from: RuthChambersPass as What !!!!!

"Passing" is important, but is not proportional to "success" in transition. I know "successful" post op TSs who look like the back end of bus ( if that is your definition of passing), but their behaviour and strength of character earn the respect of all around them.

Passing as in dying  , obviously I'm talking about passing as a woman or what else are we talking about here?  I disagree with your views because strength of character doesn't get you anywhere, not in the society we live now.

i'd have loved to make a [little] experiment.  too late now! I'd have [wanted] to dress in my mother's clothes, have a square face, a five o'clock shadow, talk like a truck driver and tell the world [im a woman]. how do you think people would've reacted? maybe my [strength of character] would've overcome societal norms!

Quote from: Katia on March 18, 2007, 12:57:51 AM
maybe my [strength of character] would've overcome societal norms!

I think the point was that some people are content being unpassable (or somewhat so), being secure enough in their identity to not be bothered by people's reactions to them.

I can't handle ridicule though, at least not yet. I freak out NOW going out, wondering what the heck people think of me. And yet, I look around sometimes and wonder how some people can leave their door, lol. I was standing in the checkout line with my wife the other night, and a younger guy (cute! and taller than me!) got behind us. I let him go ahead of us, and couldn't help but stare and try to figure him out... he was tall, thin, with a cutoff mesh T-shirt, weird pants, long coloured hair cut short in places, odd makeup... like a TS, gay man, goth and punker all rolled into one. The funny thing was, for as bizarre as he looked, he kept looking at ME too, lol.. a weirdly-feminine looking "guy" looking and sounding probably rather gay, yet standing there with a wife, with longish coloured hair, woman's jeans and sweater, lol... both of us looking at one another and thinking, "What the...?"

Kate

It's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important.  If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.

Quote from: YvonneIt's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important.  If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.

This may be true enough in some cases, but those who pass well enough and are not bothered by the issue fit in Where?

Terri

Edit: fixed quote ~ Kate

Quote from: Terri Gene on March 19, 2007, 12:16:46 PM

Quote from: YvonneIt's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important.  If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.

This may be true enough in some cases, but those who pass well enough and are not bothered by the issue fit in Where?

Terri

Edit: fixed quote ~ Kate

If you pass well and are not bothered by the issue, you are a passable transsexual.  If you don't pass, and you are not bothered by the issue, you are still an impassable transsexual.  If you don't pass and are bothered by the issue, you are an impassable transsexual.  What makes you passable?  the act of passing, not the act of feeling "comfortable".

passing to me is vital, i just want to be me, a normal girl, not seen as a transexual, even if i am treated as female, i was to be just a girl, and i will be when i go ft, passing is part comfort, and part confidence, but 80% looks, and behaviour. if you have the looks, there is a bigger variance in voice, and manerisms, because you still look female, some peps require more of the manerisms, and a more fem voice,
im lucky that hrt has just allowed me to naturally pick up natal female behaviour, and speach patterns, and ive got quite good at passing in boy mode well i say boy mode, but anyone whos seen how i look as a 'boy' will know i look more like a bad f2m and just female, or tomboyish. when i go ft, that will be it. and to me, passing will be an issue, untill it just happens, which to be honest, some people just can...