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Will "Occupy Wall Street" Stick?

Started by Julie Marie, October 07, 2011, 04:48:34 AM

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Amazon D

A hodge podge goverment will be better than what we have.. It may even work  ;)
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Michelle.

Are Unions persons? If so, why not Corporations?

Keep Unions out of things. Plus deny government employees collective bargaining rights and you have a starting point in regards to corporations.
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Amazon D

Quote from: Michelle. on November 02, 2011, 02:13:54 AM
Are Unions persons? If so, why not Corporations?

Keep Unions out of things. Plus deny government employees collective bargaining rights and you have a starting point in regards to corporations.

Union members vote where they spend their money and besides they are american, whereas corporations have CEO's and boards who decide and many are multinational and not aligned with any country and definately not all american.
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Julie Marie

My union has a Political Education Fund.  The members do not vote on how all that money is spent but they can opt out of contributing.  But there's also the dues.  Some of that money goes to political action.  Not all of that is directed by member votes but if the officers do anything the members disagree with there will be an uproar and an ousting, if it's severe enough.

But there's no way unions are structured like corporations.  Union officers cannot fire a union member but union members can fire a union officer.  That's very different from corporations.

Still, the idea any big money organization is allowed to influence elections is, to me, completely contrary to what this country stands for.  This is supposed to be a government of the people, by the people and for the people.  That effort is lost when organizations are allowed to dump millions into election campaigns.  The people elected by that influence become of the organization, by the organization and for the organization puppets.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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pixiegirl

Quote from: Michelle. on November 02, 2011, 02:13:54 AM
Are Unions persons? If so, why not Corporations?

Keep Unions out of things. Plus deny government employees collective bargaining rights and you have a starting point in regards to corporations.

Eh? Corporations are people in the U.S, as dumb as that sounds
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Michelle.

I know that and agree with that also.

You don't like who/what "someone" supports? Form your own PAC and or 538.
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Julie Marie

Occupy Oakland had a coup with their general strike Wednesday.  Getting people to be part of a general strike is rarely successful. 

Oakland turns to first general strike in 65 years
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Michelle.

They also took over one of the nation largest ports and damaged property.

The media will roll the fires and police response for the next few news cycles.

The Occupy movement has now been co opted by the criminal element, like it was more than that to begin with.

Now we know the real Obama/Dems, rioters and looters par excellence.
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Amazon D

Quote from: Michelle. on November 03, 2011, 12:49:39 PM
They also took over one of the nation largest ports and damaged property.

The media will roll the fires and police response for the next few news cycles.

The Occupy movement has now been co opted by the criminal element, like it was more than that to begin with.

Now we know the real Obama/Dems, rioters and looters par excellence.

Your so stereotypical teaparty. Many Occupy protestors do not like Obama. Alse they do not agree with radicals and those who commit crimes.. Many times the police put instigators to stir up trouble to make the 95% peaceful ones look bad. Its happened many many times and the police have been caught and admitted to doing it.
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Michelle.

I never saw any, not one, news report of mass arrests at any Tea Party event. Nor destruction of property. Nor outright riots against the police.

Those kind of events are what will shape the general publics view of this so called Occupy movement.

Sad, the Occupy movement actually had a passing moment where their best ideas could have been blended with those of the Tea Party. Remember the basis of their start? It was the bank and AIG bailouts. Nothing says 1% like the bailouts.

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Joelene9

Quote from: Michelle. on November 03, 2011, 09:34:27 PM
I never saw any, not one, news report of mass arrests at any Tea Party event. Nor destruction of property. Nor outright riots against the police.

Those kind of events are what will shape the general publics view of this so called Occupy movement.

Sad, the Occupy movement actually had a passing moment where their best ideas could have been blended with those of the Tea Party. Remember the basis of their start? It was the bank and AIG bailouts. Nothing says 1% like the bailouts.
All from this:  "Too big to fail"!    This is an epic worldwide FAIL.
  Joelene
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Michelle. on November 03, 2011, 09:34:27 PM


Sad, the Occupy movement actually had a passing moment where their best ideas could have been blended with those of the Tea Party. Remember the basis of their start? It was the bank and AIG bailouts. Nothing says 1% like the bailouts.

Tea Party wouldn't tolerate their rioting.
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Cen

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/protest-in-oakland-turns-violent.html?_r=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/11/03/black-bloc-radicals-tried-to-derail-occupy-oaklands-general-strike/



It's really unfortunate.  The effective and peaceful shutting down of the port was respectable, but the property damage elsewhere in the city is just going to give Fox more ammo.  Many involved did not approve and were trying to stop it from happening.
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Julie Marie

#173
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 01:21:40 AM
Tea Party wouldn't tolerate their rioting.

You mean the Koch brothers wouldn't tolerate their rioting.  The Tea Party doesn't want to lose their support. 

I have never seen a bigger bunch of confused people.  But as with all gatherings of confused people, they are easy to led.  Big money pulls their strings and they don't even know it.

___corrected positive to negative
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Amazon D

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 04, 2011, 07:48:30 AM
You mean the Koch brothers would tolerate their rioting.  The Tea Party doesn't want to lose their support. 

I have never seen a bigger bunch of confused people.  But as with all gatherings of confused people, they are easy to led.  Big money pulls their strings and they don't even know it.


Where is that like button when you need one   ;)

Its crazy how upper middle class peeps like to think they are a part of the 1% by supporting their side... spoiled white girls  ::)  and even those right wing evangelicals who have no true love for their brother like jesus taught  :'(  may God have mercy on their souls :angel:
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Michelle.

The results are still the same. The polling on the OWS has turned upside down. A plurality now disapproves.

On the whole Tea Party thing, way to throw insults. How, how liberal of you. Or does your side still prefer the term Progressive? What is the unused up, undamaged term these days?
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Julie Marie

Speaking of labeling... ::)

As far as the Tea Party being confused, what I'm talking about is the things they stand for and how they are in conflict with each other.  According to their many websites (I don't know which one is the official one), they want reduced taxation and a reduction of the national debt and federal budget.  Matt Kibbe, president and CEO of Freedom Works and big time Tea Party supporter, was on a talk show.  He was asked how we do this.  His answer was all over the board until, after the host tried to pin him down to a plan, he simply stood by the need to reduce taxes, government spending, the budget but still keep this country strong.  Great idea, but none of those touting it can figure out how to do it without hurting this country and its citizens. 

The Tea Party want a strong military but smaller government.  How are they going to pay for that military with reduced tax revenue while trying to pay down the national debt?

They want less government intervention, even in the face of the fact that corporations, banks and Wall Street can't be trusted to regulate themselves.  Alan Greenspan, the guy who helped usher in deregulation, even admitted to that.  Yet they seem to be pro-big money and have accepted generous "donations" from billionaires such as the Koch brothers.

They are pro-domestic employment, want gainful employment for US citizens and the ability to earn a decent wage yet support the same people who have helped stagnate wages, demanded more of their employees, laid off workers and sent jobs overseas.

They claim "Judeo-Christian values are embedded in our founding documents" yet there is abundant evidence that most, if not all of, of our founding fathers felt religious beliefs had no place in government.  Some of our founding fathers were atheists.  Why would they embed religious values in our founding documents?  The answer is, they didn't.

They claim the Constitution is inherently conservative.  Have they really read it?  Do they know the history of how it was formed?  Our Founding Fathers were rebels, protesters, and anything but conservative.  The were more like the OWS people than the Tea Party people.  They stood up to the conservative beliefs of their "homeland" and fought to break free of that.  They didn't throw rocks or set fires in garbage cans, they shot guns and canons at the people defending their conservative government and today are considered heroes. 

And then there's their "traditional family values" belief.  It reminds me of the drum beating done by Focus on the Family, the National Organization for Marriage and the American Family Association.  These, and others like them, are organizations that would take every one of us and throw us into reparative therapy if they could.  Does that mean supporting the Tea Party is in conflict with supporting a pro-LGBT attitude?  It certainly looks like it.  The "traditional family values" slogan has long been used to repress individuals, encourage conformity and create a pro-religious environment.  I don't see this attitude in our founding documents.

I don't label my perspective with ideology, it's just common sense.  You can't stand for two things that oppose one another.  And supporting some one or some thing that opposes your life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is self destructive.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Michelle.

Finally a down to earth, God honest way of fighting the "man".

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BANK_TRANSFER_DAY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-11-04-19-26-20

Next, those who moved will bitch about the lack of free ATMs.

You do make some interesting points about the Tea Party, JM.

I imagine their power is waning. Soon they will roll back into the GOP.

The scary thing about both OWS and the Tea Party to me is the Populist nature of it all.

Thats the type of stuff that ends with bloodshed.
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Jen61



Quote from: Michelle. on November 06, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
Finally a down to earth, God honest way of fighting the "man".

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BANK_TRANSFER_DAY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-11-04-19-26-20

Next, those who moved will bitch about the lack of free ATMs.

You do make some interesting points about the Tea Party, JM.

I imagine their power is waning. Soon they will roll back into the GOP.

The scary thing about both OWS and the Tea Party to me is the Populist nature of it all.

Thats the type of stuff that ends with bloodshed.

This worldwide financial unraveling and its associated hardship will pale in comparison with the food-, water-, and energy-shortages  coming in just but a few years. What ? you may say ! well, the carrying capacity of earth is 6.4 billion, we just reached the 7 billion mark.

What is the solution ? Lowering the developed contries (everybody but Africa) standard of living will help, but not for too long. In the absence of "miracle technologies," what is the solution ?

Some food for thought.

Jen61

PS. The 1% is fully aware of this dilemma/problem, they are trying to find a solution, but there is no plan !
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tekla

--Sad, the Occupy movement actually had a passing moment where their best ideas could have been blended with those of the Tea Party.
--Tea Party wouldn't tolerate their rioting.


Wouldn't the Tea Party have to climb off their hover-round (paid for with government money) first?

One is a fake invention of some political operatives and a TV network the other is truly that kind of grass roots

Those two groups were never within 100 parsecs of each other.

At the most basic level the intellectual foundation of the Tea Party is found in one of my favorite Tea Party rally signs (well aside from the classic "keep government out of my Medicare" which is uniquely clueless) is: No New, Fix Old.  At heart and in vision the Tea Party, like most of the extreme right wants to go back to the 1950s when everything was (at least for them) swell.

On the other hand, the people of occupy think much more along the lines of that famous Street Artist/Rapper/TV Cop Ice-T, who in his blended treste using a rap style over a hardcore punk music looked at the the reality of life in inner city America vs. the images of everyday life on TV in shows like Leave It To Beaver and said: ->-bleeped-<- ain't like that, it's real ->-bleeped-<-ed up.

One group sees a few problems, that with some application of classical political solutions would lead us back to the glory days of the Shinning City on the Hill were the now happy Tea Party could live out the rest of their lives frolicking in their own version of the Elysian Fields (which has no blacks, no Mexicans, No gays and where women know their place).  The other sees problems that are systemic, intractable, and rapidly becoming terminal.

And anyone who thinks - even remotely - that somewhere between No new, fix old, and ->-bleeped-<- ain't like that, it's real ->-bleeped-<-ed up there was a passing moment where there could have been a magical agreement between the two, well that person couldn't be more wrong.


At any rate, it's not about 'will it stick' but 'will it spread.'  The way I see it, for several years now many people were predicting the economic instability we were facing would lead to protests, and ultimately riots and civil unrest if it continued.  Now we are seeing that.  It may not be bad yet, but I think it will inevitably will get worse because the economic situation isn't improving.

I spend a couple of nights down at the Santa Rosa occupy, and a few at the SF occupy.  Not being a big TV watcher, and like all big-time newpaper readers I have this thing about seeing it for myself.

If that's all it is, and all it amount to then enjoy your protests, kids, because it's not happening.  You're gonna meet the new boss same as the old boss. We've seen this movie before. 1968. 1977. 1999. Its always the same damn thing, a bunch of idealists and fringers thinks they're going to change things, and in the end does absolfarkinglutely nothing but rile a few feathers and get their names in self-congratulatory wiki pages or books. Meanwhile power continues to concentrate, people continue to be marginalized, and eventually you find a way to sort of survive on your own ... til the next bubble or the next upheaval you had no hand in causing yet are being the victim of.

But, what the right finds scary about all this is not the Occupy stuff, but the notion that we currently have a number of groups that could join in on something/anything that at root encapsulates their live at this moment at SALT,IRFU who could find common cause, who have common problems, and who have (and this is the scary part) nothing really left to lose anymore.  They had the chance already to drink the Kool-Aid of 'gee, wasn't it better before and should we not go back there' and rejected it.

Not about the validity of any of the claims, but about the reality that there are a lot of people out there who feel they have been wronged.

- Homeowners underwater and those who have lost pretty much all the money they ever had in real estate over the past 10 or so years.
- students with huge loans outstanding and no job at the level of their training and ability, and no real outlook of one either.

Add in the following groups that more than likely overlay some of the above.
- people who want to see a repeal of 'corporate person-hood.'
- people who want to see the domestic police state rolled back, particularly in the areas of the Patriot Act and drug laws.
- Peace groups/anti-imperial groups - END THE ->-bleeped-<-ING WARS, BRING THE TROOPS HOME, KEEP THE TROOPS HOME.
- Environmental groups

And, (this is critical), they have to get the support of the Trade Union Movement who are the one group of people who actually have the power to pretty much Shut Down Everything.

Real revolution has not started, and from the looks of it as well as from American history, probably won't. I did say probably. But that is still highly unlikely because most Americans remain pretty much incapable of electing anything but another criminal, or in holding accountable any actual responsible party. Or even in agreeing who those responsible parties are.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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