Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 04:11:05 PM
I am sure I express myself better in YOUR language then you will in my motherlanguage.

Oh, is this my language now?  Et les Américains bête sont tous monolingue, n'est pas?

Ah, et votre logique n'est linguistique pas.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 04, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
Oh, is this my language now?  Et les Américains bête sont tous monolingue, n'est pas?

Frenchies?

I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

I did not use that word intentionally. It was her that accused me of using it intentionally and asked for someone to ban me!

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 04:33:40 PM
Frenchies?

*raises hand high* HERE HERE!!! je parle francais!!!  :DDDDDD

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 04:51:19 PM
I want to address the use of the word "guys" when speaking to transwomen. It's not something I would have thought of as offensive, and I've probably even done it on this forum somewhere. But I don't mind changing my language if it hurts somebody. It's no big deal. It's just like if someone calls me a "bitch" well I don't care if you call males that too, it's still too touchy to use with me and most FTM's. So I'll try not to use the word "guys" so freely.

If someone is hurt or offended by a word or phrase, that's not "political correctness," and they shouldn't have to prove that they have a good reason for being hurt or offended. If a word makes someone feel bad, why use that word?

i agree... i've done it before by accident i guess
i mean i make a conscious effort to try adress members of the trans community by their desired pronouns, but everybody slips up sometimes, i mean come on now we're only human  and we cant read peoples minds or nothing, but if someone says they are uncomfortable w/it, it is good to respect that and adress them as what they prefer   

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
The point is that a lot of you just dont WANT or cannot AFFORD to understand me.

That is no fair discussion. And you will NEVER win from the lesbian feminist ->-bleeped-<- haters...when you are inable to self reflect and while being this dishonest to yourselves AND them...and at the same time so politically correct it becomes intolerent.

people arent THAT stupid to keep buying into all your fake stories about how you supressed your female selves whil you were happy males

Many of us spent lifetimes desperatly fighting the need to transition tooth and nail.

I would not call balled up in the fetal possition howling in gender fueled angst, living the life of a happy male.
There are a number of women I know who transitioned late in life who can honestly say they have been there more times than they can possibly count.
We tried desperatly to be the 'men' society told us we were supposed to be. We did it out of a sence family honor and obligation. We sacrificed our souls to keep others happy instead of tending to our own needs, and I would call that a pretty stereotypic female thing to do.

Just because others life story is differant than yours does not give you the right to make asumptions about others or to bag on them.

Quote from: Sibila on November 03, 2011, 07:12:16 PM
No I dont mean that men are sociallt trapped when they are MEN. Its true entrapment works both ways. But you are talking about the wrongs of sociaty here... not genderdysforia.
In my opinion if you are born in a male body as a girl you will have very little to no benifit from being male.
BUT there are transwoman that DID have that benifit. BECAUSE they could develop a healthy ego. On a masculine ground and not on a femine one.

I'm trying hard here, I really am. But I just don't understand. I thought that transwomen, by the very definition of the term, were women born in male bodies. As in, MtF transsexuals. Surgical modification and hormone therapy are not additional requirements to qualify as a transwoman, only a state of gender dysphoria which genuinely fits the criteria described in the DSM.

You seem to be talking about people who transition without gender dysphoria. I've heard of this kind of thing happening to people with personality disorders (schizophrenia in particular), but never mentally healthy, male-identifying people (which seem to be the people you're assigning the title "transwoman with a male ego"). Can you post a link to some literature regarding these sorts of people? I won't be immediately picky about what journal or government study you give, just something scientific.

I hope you're not moving in the direction of citing  ->-bleeped-<-, by the way. That particular paraphilia is scientifically questionable at the moment.

First let me start with I think the ->-bleeped-<- theory has as many holes in it as swiss cheese.

However...
Just because something is questionable does not imediatly indicate that all debate on the topic should automaticaly be dismissed.

**damn that one was hard to swallow**

Well, the idea wasn't to silence debate on ->-bleeped-<-. I was merely indicating skepticism, and in a manner such that I didn't seem merely to be a baseless contrarian.

Quote from: emostache69 on November 04, 2011, 08:25:07 PM
*raises hand high* HERE HERE!!! je parle francais!!!  :DDDDDD

Je ne parle pas Francais...

Quote from: GinaDouglas on March 30, 2011, 02:19:59 PM
I understand it.  Feminists want to transcend gender and we're retrograde.  They want to move towards a gender-blind future, and we make gender pre-eminent.  They want to free women from what they call patriarchal-expectations about dress and behavior.  Here we go, men in their view, embracing and celebrating patriarchal-expectations of femininity.

It's been a big issue between me and the local Pride Center.  They don't want to acknowledge the differences between gay men and lesbians, whereas, if there were not significant differences between men and women, there wouldn't be much reason for anyone to change gender.  So we are philosophically opposed to each other.

Kia Ora Gina,

"Why Do Many Feminists Hate Transwomen ?"

Simply out of F.E.A.R  =Force Evidence Appearing Real...What else could it be ?

Metta Zenda

OMG Sibila!!

You took the words right out of my mouth!

I turned out to be very feminine right after the placenta came after me and that's exactly why I just couldn't build a life as a 'man'. Way to feminine and totally impossible to hide  that anyhow. And psychologically totally impossible to build a life as a man too.

I too noticed a long time ago that a lot of TS's were and are very masculine, radiating masculine energy, dominance, ambition etcetc waaaaaay stronger than any GG can ever do.

I only met a very few TS's who were and are feminine 'from the inside out'.

I also see (masculine) men becoming women instead of fysically and mentally becoming the women they were/are.

And yes, I  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty.

Sibilla, I guess you live in a Western country like I do?

I often wondered how come some many EU/USA MTF's are so masculine (and into women) while as in South America it's exactly the opposite,  same in Asia. Most MTF's there are  very feminine ex gay men.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AMI  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

I haven't read that book but I can say that anyone who thinks we are "men invading womyn's* spaces" has an incomplete grasp of our reality.

*(or however she spells it.)

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AM
I too noticed a long time ago that a lot of TS's were and are very masculine, radiating masculine energy, dominance, ambition etcetc waaaaaay stronger than any GG can ever do.

I only met a very few TS's who were and are feminine 'from the inside out'.

I also see (masculine) men becoming women instead of fysically and mentally becoming the women they were/are.

And yes, I  too thought the same after reading Janice Raymonds 'The Transsexual Empire'.......crappy, but she DOES have a point.

So the fact that some transwomen don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) disqualifies their argument that they're women? They are as Raymond says, just men trying to undermine the feminist movement? Back that up. I'm calling your bluff.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 10:17:11 AM
Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty.

Sibilla, I guess you live in a Western country like I do?

I often wondered how come some many EU/USA MTF's are so masculine (and into women) while as in South America it's exactly the opposite,  same in Asia. Most MTF's there are  very feminine ex gay men.

Dahlia, I live in Denmark. I don't match with your definition of feminine behavior. I play baseball, I shoot guns, I practice martial arts. I assert my opinion and stand up for what I think is right. I was raised in a military family, these are the things I grew up with. Are you suggesting that I'm actually just a gay man who likes to dress in drag? It isn't the product of brainwashing to call what that feminist magazine editor said what it is: bull-crap. An MtF transsexual is a woman. Your argument that she is not if she doesn't act all dainty, wear pretty dresses all the time, and prefer a flower field to a baseball field is patriarchal nonsense, a direct conflict with the aims of the feminist movement. If anyone is undermining the feminist movement, it's people like you and that editor.

<it's people like you>

So? Am I overly feminine because I don't shoot guns, don't like baseball, football, soccer, martial arts, computers, drumkits, cars, electrical guitars and never had any intention to join the army for whatever reason?

And surprise surprise, I don't wear pretty dresses all the time, I just dress casual feminine, little make up.   I don't act dainty, just ordinairy feminine, by nature that is, not 'learned' in one way or another.

But yes, I prefer a flowerfield over a baseballfield.

I grew up in an almost  all male household, except for my mother......a very masculine father and 4 very masculine brothers. I never took over their sports, interests, masculine behaviour etc because I wasn't interested at all in those kind of things and  feminine by nature and yes, played with dolls, neighbourgirls etc.

Call me stereotypical, but I wasn't aware of 'feminist behaviour' as a young child.
Just feminine by nature and back then,  and yeeeeessss......wearing my neighbours girlfriends pretty dresses as often as I could. Out in the open that was.
Can you image the problems that arose with my very masculine father and 4 very masculine brothers?


<and that editor>

I can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.
And who are different women nowadays.

I only wondered........pity she thinks that's the only kind of MTF's and doesn't acknowledge the (tiny) minority of primary MTF's who were feminine by nature  from the very beginning as a very young child.
And didn't have that many chances as.....etcetc

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 12:09:16 PMI can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.

No she isn't. Show me one MtF who was a happy, successful "man" before transition. Besides, because somebody transitions, they should be denied work? What am I missing here?

Nothing wrong with football in the european sense of the word. My flatmate played at the highest level of women's football and is an even bigger fan than myself.

As for Janice Raymond, words fail to express how much I despise that person for the unhappiness they have caused to others.

<don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) >

No, most behaviour is inborn due to XX and XY and for instance XXY/Klinefelters chromosomes.

Remember the tragic case of John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda the genetic baby boy who was surgically and hormonally altered into girl after a botched circumcision? John Money, remember?

He didn't know he was born a genetic boy and, boy his masculine nature/behaviour came out with a force while being raised as a 'girl'.

'Nature' came out with a force, despite his 'nurture' as a 'girl'.

We've learned a lot from that ever since like <patriarchal nonsense> is an old fashioned excuse.

Hmm maybe i should change my name to MOREWOMANTHANYOU