"Calling people out publicly"

Yeah, can we not pretend what was said was horrible.
Do something about it.
Or else I might not stay on this site, holy crap~

*** by the way I'm not really taking anything seriously.
It's ridiculous to make an actual argument when the same things been done about one million times.
no wonder all of you sound so ~rational~ about this.
I'm sure you've done this more than once.

Redonkulous, I say.

As I said in my previous post, I am non-op because my family is the most important thing to me. I am on Hormones and I started because I was almost ready to die because of my Dysphoria. I don't like my genitals, I think they are probably the worse thing on any body. But for now, I'm finally at peace. I've started to love who I am, not loath myself. Just getting that far has Been an accomplishment. And it really hurts that because I finally feel at peace and want to enjoy life with my family rather than see my kids once every 2 weeks and every other holiday I'm invalid. And by the people that I look to for support no less.
I don't go waving my giblets around, I have bigger problems than worrying about what I don't choose to share with the general population. So if you want to be like those ->-bleeped-<-s who think because you got your nuts cut off your still a guy, then all I can say thank you!
Thanks for topping the ->-bleeped-<-tiest day I've had in months! I am just as much a woman as anyone else here and no one else is in a position or has the right to tell me otherwise. 

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 05, 2011, 02:57:58 AM
I understand your goal and I know where you're coming from, how a binary identification and a desire not to be falsely categorized by a frequently intolerant public.  But that doesn't mean you get to disenfranchise other trans* people of an identity they may wish to hold as well (and certainly not of the gender as which they wish to identify).

How did I disenfranchise anyone with my post?  See, that's the other thing that's been going on lately.  Anytime anyone talking about the transsexual position opens their mouths (er... keyboards?) we're supposedly denying everyone else their identity.  That's total and utter rubbish.  We're describing OUR experiences, which doesn't mean you don't have the right to your own experience.  Our presence doesn't invalidate anyone else, but that's been the current attitude.

And what's up with the whole invalidation argument anyway?  Are people's senses of self-identity so weak that someone talking about their personal experience threatens to tear you apart?  (I mean the royal "you," not you personally, WD).

It doesn't seem to matter how nicely we put it.  See my long post... I worked VERY hard not to disenfranchise or deny anyone the right to anything, and yet I'm still being accused of doing just that merely because I hold a certain opinion, an opinion that's apparently taboo now.  Face it: some of us believe in the gender binary.  If that's so hard to accept, then I'm at a loss.  I have no hard time believing people are third gender or gender neutral, or all manner in between.  No skin off my rosy nose.  One of my good friends is VERY much genderqueer and I'd never deny his identity and his right to express it.  But apparently those of us who live in the binary need to shut up?

Or, we can accept the fact that we're different and move on instead of militantly digging our knives into the other side's backs.

Oh, my. Hot topic.

Non-ops are transgendered, in that they fall under the umbrella. You may call them transsexual, as that's a medically correct term, however the technicality of it... is that you aren't going from one sex to the other in every sense of the word. That is, your sex isn't being changed. In either case, it's sort of a petty argument... definitions and classifications... our time could be better spent. But I suppose a little drama can be fun.

Pre-ops fall under that category too...

Now, then there's the woman and man thing. Again, definitions and classifications. If a woman is defined by her brain, then a non op or a pre op can be properly labelled as a woman. Most people here would agree with that, I imagine. On the other hand, if we are arguing man and woman as being defined by society's expectations or a man or woman, a non-op or pre-op would not always fit in the category they're transitioning to. But any argument with society is bound to be extremely variable... We're an extremely diverse race, a fact that I like more than I don't.

Now, arguing over what words to use for people is fun and all, but it's not terribly... productive. There are solid definitions, and there are technicalities - which also have solutions. I'm happy that our Disco Shark is happy with herself. And I'm happy for anyone that's happy about themselves. Genuinely. There is nothing to argue here... this thread is supposed to be about pride. Pride in oneself, and, it'd be nice if we were all proud of each other too.

Are we all proud of this thread? :p

Lets stop and recuperate.

Deep breathes and feelings of tolerance and good will.

No one has said anyone is more or less gender identified as any one else. The people who have gone to the level of full time life, surgical reconstruction, change all documents, erase the past, feel a bit different. Why shouldn't they? I'm not demoting anyone's genderism I'm commenting on how others feel. We need to see that and we are not. I do not know why.

I have it from close friends, when they had surgery, which may have taken years to get to, they feel different. They may have lived as a woman for years and accepted into society, but they feel different; this raises several questions. The first is why.  We seem to be stumbling over that at the moment.

From a personal point of view I like this debate but if people have problems let me know as a Mod. In this debate I am not a Mod.

Quote from: Jordan R.T. on November 05, 2011, 03:20:48 AM

Are we all proud of this thread? :p

I know I am...But I'm a vain narcissist... Hey, just being honest.

I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

lolsrsly.
I'm migrating to the FTM side.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:26:56 AM
I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

I am proud of that too. We need to get together with Rukio and have a party...

In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:26:56 AM
I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

lolsrsly.
I'm migrating to the FTM side.

Haha. I value your comments.

Sometimes it's more about the drama than the debate... a little spice in the meal every now and then tastes good, y'know. I just wish some people didn't have to burn their mouths on it.

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 03:23:50 AM

No one has said anyone is more or less gender identified as any one else.

People have very literally said just that many times, even within this thread.  They don't say "I'm transsexual and you are transgender."  They say "I am woman and you are not."  Not everyone, but a few specific people.  There are direct quotes on this page, and all one has to do is go through any previous threads on this topic to find similar comments.

Quote from: Yvonne on November 05, 2011, 03:30:46 AM
In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

+1

I've been living this way since summer of 2009... I am also a transgender performer... But thats me out of face in my avatar...

Quote from: Yvonne on November 05, 2011, 03:30:46 AM
In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

AMEN SISTER. SPEAK YOUR PIECE, YOUR ENTITLED TO IT.

IF YOU DONT WALK THE WALK. YOU CANT CLAIM ANYTHING.

SOME PEOPLE LIVE IN FANTASY ISLAND, THEIR OKAY WITH THEIR PENIS SO WHY DO THEY TUCK IT AND HIDE IT AND NOT TELL THE GUYS OR GIRLS THEY FLIRT WITH THAT THEY HAVE ONE? LMFAO. OH BOY WHAT A MESS.

JUST SAYIN THE OBVIOUS TRUTH.

I honestly don't care what people do to their bodies or how they identify. I would just really, really desperately appreciate it if people could keep their comments confined to their own experience, their own lives, and their own identities.

I am sick of reading posts that tell me that I'm male until my surgery, that I was born male, etc. Feel free to say whatever you want about yourself, but it has nil to do with me.

Same goes for those who've said that SRS is unnecessary for me, or that really it should be called gender euphoria rather than dysphoria, or that I'm not allowed to call my transsexualism a birth defect.

Get your paws off my identity and out of my pants.

Quote from: winter88 on November 05, 2011, 03:47:08 AM
AMEN SISTER. SPEAK YOUR PIECE, YOUR ENTITLED TO IT.

IF YOU DONT WALK THE WALK. YOU CANT CLAIM ANYTHING.

SOME PEOPLE LIVE IN FANTASY ISLAND, THEIR OKAY WITH THEIR PENIS SO WHY DO THEY TUCK IT AND HIDE IT AND NOT TELL THE GUYS OR GIRLS THEY FLIRT WITH THAT THEY HAVE ONE? LMFAO. OH BOY WHAT A MESS.

JUST SAYIN THE OBVIOUS TRUTH.

Holy crap, you missed the point.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:49:26 AM
Holy crap, you missed the point.

oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

 Some of these posts are reminiscent of Trade Chat from World of Warcraft. It's not easy to tell if some are serious, or if it's just for the thrill.

My bet? Well. I'll keep that to my tiny self.

Quote
oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

See you. 

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 03:16:00 AM
How did I disenfranchise anyone with my post?  See, that's the other thing that's been going on lately.  Anytime anyone talking about the transsexual position opens their mouths (er... keyboards?) we're supposedly denying everyone else their identity.  That's total and utter rubbish.  We're describing OUR experiences, which doesn't mean you don't have the right to your own experience.  Our presence doesn't invalidate anyone else, but that's been the current attitude.

And what's up with the whole invalidation argument anyway?  Are people's senses of self-identity so weak that someone talking about their personal experience threatens to tear you apart?  (I mean the royal "you," not you personally, WD).

It doesn't seem to matter how nicely we put it.  See my long post... I worked VERY hard not to disenfranchise or deny anyone the right to anything, and yet I'm still being accused of doing just that merely because I hold a certain opinion, an opinion that's apparently taboo now.  Face it: some of us believe in the gender binary.  If that's so hard to accept, then I'm at a loss.  I have no hard time believing people are third gender or gender neutral, or all manner in between.  No skin off my rosy nose.  One of my good friends is VERY much genderqueer and I'd never deny his identity and his right to express it.  But apparently those of us who live in the binary need to shut up?

Or, we can accept the fact that we're different and move on instead of militantly digging our knives into the other side's backs.

I'm not saying y'all can't identify within the gender binary.  Who am I kidding: for the most part, I identify within the gender binary as well.  When I was talking about disenfranchising people, I wasn't really specifically referring to you (again, royal "you"), so much as the people who think that someone can't identify as female because of x or as transsexual because of x when their identity is just that.

In the same way that trans men and women "challenge" most societal assumptions of what being a man and woman really is, I think we should welcome non-operative trans* people challenging assumptions of what being trans* or transgender or transsexual really means (and I think that includes non-operative trans people identifying within the gender binary, if they so choose!)

I don't want fights, I want open discussion and thoughtful debate.  And I'm glad you're engaging in that too.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:12:50 AM
I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

--------------------------------------------

The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.

I agree with being able to call things what they are but using suicidal tendencies as an emotional strawman makes no sense. You are implying that for a transsexual there are only the options of achieving genital satisfaction or desiring suicide.

People can feel bad or very bad about things without commiting or wanting to commit suicide over them. You need to take a step back and realize that not everything you say is something you have in common with other transsexuals. The desires are by definition something you have in common. Your reaction to not satisfying those desires is a totally different issue that is based on your own personality. So the suicide stuff is not rigidly related and it has no place in the point you are trying to make. These are not by definition "issues of survival."

Quote from: winter88 on November 05, 2011, 03:51:28 AM
oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

Nah nah nah...hey hey...good bye!