Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 01:05:18 PM
<don't match with your definition of feminine behavior (which is culturally defined, by the by) >

No, most behaviour is inborn due to XX and XY and for instance XXY/Klinefelters chromosomes.

Remember the tragic case of John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda the genetic baby boy who was surgically and hormonally altered into girl after a botched circumcision? John Money, remember?

He didn't know he was born a genetic boy and, boy his masculine nature/behaviour came out with a force while being raised as a 'girl'.

'Nature' came out with a force, despite his 'nurture' as a 'girl'.

We've learned a lot from that ever since like <patriarchal nonsense> is an old fashioned excuse.

I have to restrain myself from screaming profanities and insults at you, because this is so wrong it's pathetic. Behavior is programmed? My chromosomes are what tell me to like baseball, guns, and martial arts? Guess what, Dahlia: YOU HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! And yet somehow, some way, we manage to act differently. We manage to have drastically different hobbies and so forth.

Could it possibly be...? Could it be that John/Joan had a fixed male gender identity, but was actively discouraged from pursuing his interests and continually told again, and again, and again that he was a she, and that maybe (just maybe) THAT is what caused all the psychological trauma? Could it also be that his interests were not the product of genetic programming, but *gasp* a genuine interest? Is it possible that humans are not programmed drones, but develop individual interests over time? Nahhh, Dahlia knows what she's talking about. We're all machines, and we do whatever we're programmed to do. Never mind the people with two X chromosomes who join the military, play sports, work on computers, and so forth. They don't exist, and are just an old-fashioned myth propagated by feminists to undermine traditional, biologically programmed gender norms. And never mind that those norms vary by culture, that's just another feminist myth.

Dahlia, darling. SHUT UP.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
<and that editor>

I can understand her perfectly why she and her coworkers don't hire MTF's. She's perfectly right about them having had their chances as former straight, dominant, ambitious and competative well educated men and high climbers too.
And who are different women nowadays.

I only wondered........pity she thinks that's the only kind of MTF's and doesn't acknowledge the (tiny) minority of primary MTF's who were feminine by nature  from the very beginning as a very young child.
And didn't have that many chances as.....etcetc

Dahlia, that editor is saying that I'm less of a woman than she is. YOU are saying that I'm less of a woman than you are. There is no quicker way to make me angry than that (as you might have noticed). Just because I'm a military girl doesn't mean I'm not a girl, or that I'd have done better simply accepting my birth sex. You better get your ->-bleeped-<- straight.

Doesn't everyone here technically have xy genes? I mean it manifests itself in physical form. I mean I see the sausage and potaters and I am like, "wow, I was born an XY!"

Not tryin to offend, but it's the truth.

That is correct, Mahsa. Physical characteristics are determined by chromosomes and genetics. She's arguing that behavior attributed to different gender norms is as well, which is a whole other ball game. In essence, she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.

*Edited for clarity.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
That is correct, Mahsa. Physical characteristics are determined by chromosomes and genetics. She's arguing that behavior attributed to different gender norms is as well, which is a whole other ball game. In essence, she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.

*Edited for clarity.

I don't care how much the transcommunity says, "I have a female brain/genes/etc" Yes, I consider them female because I respect my fellow women. However, to not at least remember or acknowledge you were born XY(if only physically... Not mentally) just comes off as crazy. I know people have different dsyphoria, but also to ignore our real past is problematic. I embrace both...Because duality exists in us all.

Like people who say, "I got my genes examined and have xxxxxyyyyyyyy" whatever, you were born with a male part...you are xy in that respect. No shame in that. This board is about transforming in one way or another here. But no one is better than anyone else. I am sick of the "I'm a real female cuz I had srs" argument.

<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

<she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.>

Where did I write that??  I never wear dresses or skirts!

It seems you're the one who is prejudiced ;-)

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

And this helps you claim that chromosomes determine behavior because...?

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<HAVE THE EXACT SAME CHROMOSOME SET THAT I DO FOR DETERMINING BIOLOGICAL SEX!!!!! >

Do you need to  pretend to be clairvoyant? No, we don't have the exact same chromosome set. I have an extra X, Klinefelter.

We're really proud of you. But did you check your pants and see what the chromosomes gave ya?

Btw, your environment determines your behavior. I came from an abusive homelife and was a troublemaker in the gay community. That had more of an effect on me than any of my genes. You may be more predisposed to doing stuff, but not exactly.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 06, 2011, 04:38:31 PM
We're really proud of you. But did you check your pants and see what the chromosomes gave ya?

Sure I did. Infertile.

Furthermore: total absense of bodyhair including armpits, very sparse pubic hair, wide hips, etcetc.

And....people are more than genitals alone.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM
<she's arguing that she likes dresses better than pants because of some biological agent rather than as a personal preference. That's a very different claim.>

Where did I write that??  I never wear dresses or skirts!

It seems you're the one who are prejudiced ;-)

Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

As a child, not as an adult.

And yes, I find shooting guns, militairy, baseball etcetc typical masculine things to do. Especially shooting guns.

I've never heard a GG shouting down she's a real, 100% GG, no matter how butch. Only masculine MTF's....

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Um...remember when you regaled us with your stories of girlhood, when you would go over to your girlfriends houses and try on their dresses? Um...maybe I got it from that, which you attached to an argument that behavior is definitively feminine or masculine and biologically determined. Maybe? O_O

Meh. It's cultural... I used to wear tight jeans, black/red chucks, ripped up back shirts, and shave my head cuz I was a kink twink not because the DNA made me do it. DNA does not cause compulsions. It is rather a series of things in a persons life.

I think the whole, "DNA made me do it" is a justification for what society would consider an otherwise deviant behavior. Thus, trans people need to be more honest with themselves and the society at large.

Dahlia, the time frame of the behavior was not the point you conveyed, even if it was the point you were trying to make. What you conveyed was an argument that you wore dresses and didn't play sports because you were feminine in your girlhood, and that these are the behaviors of one who was feminine early on. What you're agreeing with as you side with that editor is that people who did not share your girlhood experiences would have been better off living as men. DO YOU DENY IT?

Mahsa, we agree on the argument that behaviors, mannerism, and dress being attributed to males or females are always attributed through a cultural screen rather than a biological one. I would have to think about the rest.

<DO YOU DENY IT?>

Would I? I wrote different women. Read again.

I'm sorry to say, but I'm not susceptable to (masculine) militairy interrogations.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
<DO YOU DENY IT?>

Would I? I wrote different women. Read again.

I'm sorry to say, but I'm not susceptable to (masculine) militairy interrogations.

That usually works. But last night, a navy go go dancer interroGAYted me and my friend.

It was hot.

Dahlia, you are dodging your own words by trying to distract me with something else you said. You argued that this editor was right in what she had said. That means you accept her argument. That means that yes, you would and yes you did argue that transwomen exhibiting "masculine" tendencies would have been better off not pursuing HRT or SRS. Try to hide from your words if you want. YOU re-read. When you say someone is right, by entailment you accept their argument. Sorry, that's how logic works.

Just in case you doubt my honesty about your argument, here you go:

"Here in Holland the editor of the biggest feminist magazine once said in an interview: 'no, we don't hire MTF's, they've already had all their chances in their former lifes as men'. Which is true, for being dominant, ambitious, competative former  straight men....and often very well educated and high climbers.


This feminist editor is  just not politically correct brainwashed, doesn't give anyone a chance to and sees things very clear, realistic and in all  honesty."

Also, your little addition about them being different women now still doesn't address my argument: that you're claiming that only MtFs that conform to your definition of femininity are to be considered women. That would be the "different" part, Dahlia.

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 06, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Dahlia, you are dodging your own words by trying to distract me with something else you said. You argued that this editor was right in what she had said. That means you accept her argument. That means that yes, you would and yes you did argue that transwomen exhibiting "masculine" tendencies would have been better off not pursuing HRT or SRS. Try to hide from your words if you want. YOU re-read. When you say someone is right, by entailment you accept their argument. Sorry, that's how logic works.

They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

I would rather say.....hire a MTF who was feminine from her early years as a child. She had a battle in life. She has suffered from prejudice from straight men who ruined her chances for a good education and career.

It seems to me you don't really understand what it means to be very feminine as a child. You simple don't get the chance to build a healthy ego like yours.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 05:13:21 PM
They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

Former straight men?

One needs to look no further than the "do I pass threads?" here. They are filled with former straight men who seem fascinated with transition. Just as I retained my gay cattiness, they retained whatever it is straight men do. People are not "reborn" as someone else. It doesn't work like that. If you had an awkward personality/look before, chances are you'll retain that after transition. You'll feel better in yourself, but the same person is always gonna be there.

Transition overall is about appearances, yes you are living your life as a woman even if your personality never changed. Talking about hair and makeup and being sensitive doesn't reflect that.

Quote from: Dahlia on November 06, 2011, 05:13:21 PM
They are different women. Born as XY males, mostly ex straight ex man behaving accordingly. Is she obliged to hire a different woman with a (long) past as a completely passable straight guy including all chances for a good education, a career etc?

I would rather say.....hire a MTF who was feminine from her early years as a child. She had a battle in life. She has suffered from prejudice from straight men who ruined her chances for a good education and career.

It seems to me you don't really understand what it means to be very feminine as a child. You simple don't get the chance to build a healthy ego like yours.

So the moral of the story is that if I want to enjoy activities such as martial arts, gunplay, and so forth, the only correct course is for me to live in the closet forever and pretend to be a man. If I should ever desire to cultivate my female gender identity, I had better conform to Dutch gender norms. Dahlia, we're done here. You're either an idiot or a troll, and either way you're not worth talking to. Oh, and it's interesting to discover that I haven't had a hard life. News to me.

Have fun with her, Mahsa.