Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 06, 2011, 09:59:46 PM
I always assumed gay and trans were relative. My friend Adam was like, "You were so gay you became a chick". I mean I used to be a flamer...now I am hetero. But of course, gay men and het girls have similar personalities.

But really all I've done is change appearances. I'd prefer a gay man over a straight man...I feel comfortable around them. Maybe I am just too honest with myself... But I suppose I wish I was born female, but I was born male..

At least I look fabulous and that's all that matters. LOL

Kia Ora Mahsa,

A while ago a friend [whom I came out to about my past] asked if a mutual 'gay' friend of ours was also transsexual, she like many 'out of the know' still believed when it came to gay men they were really woman trapped in a male body and some just 'chose to have GRS...It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve...

Metta Zenda

Yeah when sexuality first started being studied scientifically (in Germany, in Hitler's era), trans and gay were lumped in together as "sexual inversion."

I think the OP's question is a good one, despite the fact that it will probably lead to some fighting and hurt feelings.

When I tried to be a girl, I was seen as pretty rough around the edges. I cuss too much, I dumpster-dive, I like to get dirty, I'm sexually aggressive, I carry a knife, etc.

Now that I've admitted that I'm a boy, I come across as kind of a fairy sometimes. I do sit knee over knee, my walk is slightly mincing, I'm slinky and silly, I like glitter as much as leather, and...well I'm still finding out which things I do aren't considered manly or hetero.

But I'm exactly the same person with the same habits. I was hardcore and tough as a girl, and I'm soft and sensitive as a boy. Labels change everything.

* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

Yes!
A normal gay male will NEVER want to change his member for a vj - ever.
That's the hole attraction being gay male!
It also will never dissolve the dislike, disdain for female-bits.
Would you want to become physically what you disdain? Really?
You may provide your own answer.

That is where the major difference lies.
If the person is BI, it may be yet another story altogether.

Axelle

Quote from: Felix on November 06, 2011, 10:20:20 PM
Yeah when sexuality first started being studied scientifically (in Germany, in Hitler's era), trans and gay were lumped in together as "sexual inversion."

I think the OP's question is a good one, despite the fact that it will probably lead to some fighting and hurt feelings.

When I tried to be a girl, I was seen as pretty rough around the edges. I cuss too much, I dumpster-dive, I like to get dirty, I'm sexually aggressive, I carry a knife, etc.

Now that I've admitted that I'm a boy, I come across as kind of a fairy sometimes. I do sit knee over knee, my walk is slightly mincing, I'm slinky and silly, I like glitter as much as leather, and...well I'm still finding out which things I do aren't considered manly or hetero.

But I'm exactly the same person with the same habits. I was hardcore and tough as a girl, and I'm soft and sensitive as a boy. Labels change everything.

Kia Ora Felix,

I have a F2M friend who comes a cross as a 'gay' male[in his mannerism], but he has no interest in men whatsoever, he's happily married[well civil union here in NZ] to his cis-female partner...Another F2M I know [I'm not sure of his sexual orientation] however he comes across as a run of the mill new age guy...

Like yourself, I too haven't changed my habits/behaviour, only my physical appearance as changed plus the normal changes that occur with age...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Axélle on November 06, 2011, 10:25:51 PM
* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

Yes!
A normal gay male will NEVER want to change his member for a vj - ever.
That's the hole attraction being gay male!
It also will never dissolve the dislike, disdain for female-bits.
Would you want to become physically what you disdain? Really?
You may provide your own answer.

That is where the major difference lies.
If the person is BI, it may be yet another story altogether.

Axelle

Kia Ora Axelle,

* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

I was referring to the mind-set of some cis-folk when it came to gay men being 'women trapped in a male body'...

We may have gotten our wires crossed a little sorry...

Metta Zenda

What does this have to do with being transgendered?

Leave the gay men alone!!!! They are awesome.

* I was referring to the mind-set of some cis-folk when it came to gay men being 'women trapped in a male body'... *

Exactly what I understood. No crossed wire.
If they'd be "trapped" as in trans-folks they would want to be untrapped... right?

So, become what they are according to cis-folks ---- female???

Joking, right?

Axelle
PS: I'm VERY fine with gay males myself "trans-fruit-fly" ?
I was speaking of cis-folks' misconceptions, - if that was not clear.

My partner and I have presented some Trans 101 workshops. We have often found that explaining the range of possibilities with this (or similar diagram) helps people really get the diversity. We look at four distinct aspects, each line is a continuum, so a person could be anywhere along that, not simply either/or.

Physical sex

Male ------------ Intersex ---------- Female

Gender identity (how we internally perceive our gender, regardless of external appearances)

Male ------------ Androgyne/Genderqueer/etc ---------- Female

Gender expression (how we externally express our gender, or how we would like to express it)

Masculine ------------ Androgynous/Genderqueer ---------- Feminine

Sexual Orientation (Who we are attracted to)

Male ------------ bisexual/pansexual/asexual/etc ---------- Female

So a person as described earlier in thread could be male bodied, gender identity male, gender expression and mannerisms between genderqueer and feminine, and attracted to males.

Try this chart for yourself. For example, I am male bodied (assigned male at birth); my gender identity is somewhere on a continuum of androgyne/female; my preferred gender expression is on a continuum of androgynous/feminine; my orientation is bisexual (I am attracted to the person, not their sex/gender).

Z

I'm sorry, but I seriously hate that chart and I've seen it way, way too many times.

How about:

Gender Assigned at Birth: (Self-evident.)

Male. Female.

Actual Gender: (The gender you experience yourself to be.)

Male. Female. Androgyn. Genderqueer. (Note, this is not a spectrum, but a galaxy of options - and picking more than one is cool too.)

Gender Expression: (How our self-expression is perceived in gendered terms within the context of our society and culture.)

Male ---- Androgynous/Mixed ---- Female.

Sexual Orientation: (Who you want to ->-bleeped-<- and/or fall in love with - which may or may not be the same.)

Androsexual ------------- bisexual/pansexual/asexual/etc. -------- Gynesexual


I was assigned male at birth. I am in actuality female. I am perceived as an androgynous-presenting female. I am romantically and sexual attracted to women (gynesexual / lesbian).

Sarah7,

... amazing, you just explained my chart... and I wonder for how many other MtFs... :-)

Jolly good show!
Axelle

Sarah,

I totally agree on calling it "Gender Assigned at Birth" rather than "sex", and also that multiple options are possible for "Actual Gender". You'll notice that I chose multiple descriptors for both my gender identity and expression, I probably would have chosen a few more if I'd had more coffee 

Z

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 04:13:48 AM
What does this have to do with being transgendered?

Leave the gay men alone!!!! They are awesome.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

Just in case you didn't know,  there're quite a few trans-people who 'fear' being mistaken for 'gay' and there're quite a few cis-people[and gay-people] who see trans-people as 'gyne/andro-co-mimic' gays... Some gays[most definately not all] tend to think trans-people just feel too ashamed [because of the stigma surrounding homosexuality] to admit to their homosexual tendencies ...It's warped logic on their part, but life can be weird at time 

You're right for the most part 'gay people' are awesome I have many gay/lesbian friends on the island where I live... We are one big 'happy' family...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 12:25:01 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

Just in case you didn't know,  there're quite a few trans-people who 'fear' being mistaken for 'gay' and there're quite a few cis-people[and gay-people] who see trans-people as 'gyne/andro-co-mimic' gays... Some gays[most definately not all] tend to think trans-people just feel too ashamed [because of the stigma surrounding homosexuality] to admit to their homosexual tendencies ...It's warped logic on their part, but life can be weird at time 

Really, most gay men i've met are cool. They can easily clock most transsexuals too.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 01:25:50 PM
Really, most gay men i've met are cool. They can easily clock most transsexuals too.

Kia Ora Mahsa,
 
Believe it or not there 'are' gay and lesbian people who still think trans-people are just gays in denial [ deeply homophobic]...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,
 
Believe it or not there 'are' gay and lesbian people who still think trans-people are just gays in denial [ deeply homophobic]...

Metta Zenda

Well when two crossdressers have sex with each other... Thats pretty gay. There are certainly gay tendencies.

If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 01:57:57 PM

If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

Kia Ora Mahsa,

Unless the drag queen's a closeted transsexual that is, then you could be either bi or lesbian

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 10:48:59 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

Unless the drag queen's a closeted transsexual that is, then you could be either bi or lesbian

Metta Zenda

If they are living as a gay male...they are a gay man in drag. I don't know what is going on in their heads.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 10:57:06 PM
If they are living as a gay male...they are a gay man in drag. I don't know what is going on in their heads.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

So why would a 'gay' drag queen want to have sex with a 'woman' then?

"If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

What does it make you ?

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 11:26:40 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

So why would a 'gay' drag queen want to have sex with a 'woman' then?

"If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

What does it make you ?

Doesn't make me anything. Cuz I'm not going there.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 11:29:21 PM
Doesn't make me anything. Cuz I'm not going there.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

But you're already there girl ! 

Metta Zenda