Just wanted to add this.  I think we all tend to forget that their is another force at work.  We question God about the why.  Why all the bad and ugly stuff?  And i'll speak for myself.  Sometimes I forget that Satan is alive and well.  He can pose as an angel of light, but is a wolf, seeking who he can devour.  When i find myself questioning God, being totally confused, yea, that's satan.  God is not a God of confusion. 
When I am tested and tried in my faith,  I try to remember to ask, where is this trial coming from?  Is God looking to grow me up, teach me a new thing, or is this satan, looking to trip me up and make me feel worthless?  Is this satan, looking for a way to get me to abandon my faith? 

Obvious answer is out fishing today.

I used to believe in Hell and Satan, but the more I study the scriptures, the more I personally see that Satan and Hell are just myths.

Since I stopped believing in Satan, my life has improved tremendously.

I do not believe in a falling Angel to be blamed for the evils humanity has committed. I blame the actual people committing those evils. Evil is something created by us. Not by God through Satan.

So... you're studying to be a minister in a religion you really don't believe in, after having been a minister in a religion you really didn't believe in?  You know you don't have to go to all that effort in order not to take the world on faith.  That's what science classes are for.

Quote from: Annah on November 10, 2011, 10:45:05 AM
I used to believe in Hell and Satan, but the more I study the scriptures, the more I personally see that Satan and Hell are just myths.

Since I stopped believing in Satan, my life has improved tremendously.

I do not believe in a falling Angel to be blamed for the evils humanity has committed. I blame the actual people committing those evils. Evil is something created by us. Not by God through Satan.

I've been convinced of the same for some time. It really does make a tremendous difference. It's also perfect sense.

Quote from: tekla on November 10, 2011, 10:57:08 AM
So... you're studying to be a minister in a religion you really don't believe in, after having been a minister in a religion you really didn't believe in?  You know you don't have to go to all that effort in order not to take the world on faith.  That's what science classes are for.

You totally missed the point.

There are a rather large group of Christians do not believe in hell. One of the most famous 20th Century Theologians, Karl Barth, doubted the existence of hell and a physical, living entity that is to be blamed on all evil.

Don't assume your belief in what a Christian believes in is like that for everyone who worships Christianity. Negating one aspect of a theological discourse does not mean everything else should be summarily dismissed.

Will try posting this again. 
To Tekla.  Your analogy of fishing is a good one.  By believing in God, I am fishing with this big juicy worm on the end of my hook.  If I am patient, and have faith, I will receive a good catch.  However, satan gives me this bare hook to fish with, which ends up giving me alot of grief and wastes my time.  And how I chose to fish, is up to me.  That's called free will.
as for other posts:
How people can pick and chose what parts of the Bible they say are right and wrong....I don't understand.  It's either all right or it's all wrong.  You either believe...or you don't. 
Do you go along with the popular opinion...or do you trust the word of God?  For me...I trust God!

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 11:38:06 AM
How people can pick and chose what parts of the Bible they say are right and wrong....I don't understand.  It's either all right or it's all wrong.  You either believe...or you don't. 
Do you go along with the popular opinion...or do you trust the word of God?  For me...I trust God!

I do not pick and chose things from the Bible. I read it as a whole on both an exegetical and hermeneutic level. I just do not see anything that assumes an actual, living, existing creature named Satan who throws us in hell. I see them poetry and parables, but I do not see an actual, historical account of it in the Bible to make a foundation that hell is theologically real. This is not me picking and choosing. This is on the whole.

Conservative Christianity can use your same argument against you when you try to tell them Paul does not speak against Homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9. So be careful with the idea that because someone does not believe in something that means they must be picking things out of the bible without any merit because your argument can backfire on you.

Hey Annah.  Not looking to create a confrontation here.  But, I do believe in the whole Bible.  It does'nt backfire on me at all.  I know I am a child of God.  I know I am who He made me to be.  I know I am not perfect, and never will be until He calls me home.  To say there is no satan...no evil force is going against the Bible.  It is preaching deceit. 
If I am wrong and the Bible ...God shows me my wrong, I will be grateful.  The Bible proves itself.  Look to God instead of all the people with big degrees after their names.  The Bible is the truth...the way...to life!

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 11:58:11 AM
Hey Annah.  Not looking to create a confrontation here.  But, I do believe in the whole Bible.  It does'nt backfire on me at all.  I know I am a child of God.  I know I am who He made me to be.  I know I am not perfect, and never will be until He calls me home.  To say there is no satan...no evil force is going against the Bible.  It is preaching deceit. 
If I am wrong and the Bible ...God shows me my wrong, I will be grateful.  The Bible proves itself.  Look to God instead of all the people with big degrees after their names.  The Bible is the truth...the way...to life!

And that is awesome that you believe in the whole Bible as it is written on the surface level. I just do not. I wanted to make it clear that this is not me picking and choosing scripture that I like. My interpretations of the scripture is vastly different than yours. This does not mean I omit it. Also, I believe the Bible to be a divine book of spiritual truths; however, I believe it is not the only authoritative source tho. It is one of many that I use.

It's the most authoritative to me in the Christian areas of theology but not in other spiritual spheres of theology.

I'm not interested in debating my comments so don't try.  These are my beliefs.

I take the whole Bible, I read it literally, I don't read "part a" of a verse, I read the whole verse, the whole chapter, etc.  When you break things down to just part of a verse it is too easy to make it mean whatever you want.

As to the original question, God did come to you when you sought Him, unfortunately the answer wasn't what you wanted (don't think I didn't ask God the same question, I still do).  I would give anything, "except my salvation" to have been born a woman.  I don't know why God lets us go through these things, I guess we will find out when we are in heaven (i.e. I believe in a real Heaven and a real Hell).

If people tell me this is a sin, I remind them God forgives sin and removes it as far as the east is from the west (if we are saved).

I wish God would change us to our desired gender, but for His own reasons He does not.

Hey Sarah.  You are absolutely right.  Sometimes we are put into situations we don't understand.  And we need to stay faithful.  For myself, I know why God made me a transman...but I won't go into that.  You stay strong in God.  He will see you through.  God Bless you! 
Also,  don't stop putting forth your requests to God.  There is the vese that says," Ask and it will be given you."  etc.  But in the original language, it says, "Ask,  and keep asking...and keep asking...seek...and keep seeking....etc.
Never stop bringing your requests to God.  He hears.

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 11:38:06 AM
How people can pick and chose what parts of the Bible they say are right and wrong....I don't understand.  It's either all right or it's all wrong.  You either believe...or you don't. 
Do you go along with the popular opinion...or do you trust the word of God?  For me...I trust God!

I apologise for interfering in a comment directed to someone else.

As a Christian, I take the teachings of Jesus as paramount, then look at everything else. For example, I recall, many years ago, having a rather heated discussion, because someone claimed they supported the old Testament ideal of and Eye for an Eye. I've heard many attempts to justify that which Jesus has specifically or by inferance, rejected.

I take Jesus' version and treat all others as mistakes or errors. This is clear evidence of error in the Bible. The rules didn't change with Jesus. The 10 Commandments were the same for Jesus as when they were written as they are now. The 3rd commandment never said we must attend church every week, pay so much for the privelege and accept the judgement of clergy, because Jesus specifically said it didn't.

We asnwer to no man. We are responsible for our own souls, each of us. We will answer to God alone, for our submission to His will. This is the teaching of Jesus. This is the truth.

Hell is a myth. A myth made up by men, as a threat, the ultimate sanction they assumed, namely, that if we don't do as they say, men, then we can be pusnished, for all eternity.

Now think about it. Let's assume that Hell exists. What does it mean?

It means that, after judgement, God will condem most people to eternal suffering and that He will watch and presumably gain some satisfaction from that suffering.

So, in other words, the god being spoken of is a god who will have countless souls, suffering, for all eternity, as a sort of spectacle, forever in the background. That, frankly, doesn't sound like God as spoken of by Jesus.

Those of you who are parents, will know how it feels when one of your kids really annoys you. You will know how it feels to be angry, even perhaps, very angry. But ask yourselves, how angry will you need to be with one of your kids to cause them a painful and permanant injury, then spend the rest of your life, watching that child suffer.

The sort of god who would do that isn't the sort of god I would want to be with. If there is a hell, I'd prefer to be there than with such a god.

Once we reject hell, we remove the pressure in our relationship with God. A relationship that is personal. We don't need anyone to inteceed for us. We don't need anyone's permission or judgement. We get that from God.

Quote from: Annah on November 10, 2011, 08:59:00 AM
Oh I totally understand. I see God more of a mother type of being and also God as Both male and female and neither male nor female.

I often think that we forget that we are made in God's image and not the other way around. All of have a small portion of God's attributes and also a spirit contained in a physical body. God is a spirit. We try so hard to describe God in amphomorphic terms. IE God has hands,feet, or we use terms like God is a fortress,rock etc. As we are finite beings we try very hard to describe God in those finite limited terms. Which then can be a trap because then it becomes way to easy to bring God down to our level. Even if we were able to see God face to face no human words could ever really describe what God is like. They would fall so far short.

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 10:18:51 AM
Just wanted to add this.  I think we all tend to forget that their is another force at work.  We question God about the why.  Why all the bad and ugly stuff?  And i'll speak for myself.  Sometimes I forget that Satan is alive and well.  He can pose as an angel of light, but is a wolf, seeking who he can devour.  When i find myself questioning God, being totally confused, yea, that's satan.  God is not a God of confusion. 
When I am tested and tried in my faith,  I try to remember to ask, where is this trial coming from?  Is God looking to grow me up, teach me a new thing, or is this satan, looking to trip me up and make me feel worthless?  Is this satan, looking for a way to get me to abandon my faith? 

Quote from: Annah on November 10, 2011, 10:45:05 AM
I used to believe in Hell and Satan, but the more I study the scriptures, the more I personally see that Satan and Hell are just myths.

Since I stopped believing in Satan, my life has improved tremendously.

I do not believe in a falling Angel to be blamed for the evils humanity has committed. I blame the actual people committing those evils. Evil is something created by us. Not by God through Satan.

On this i am coming from a slightly different perspective. I do believe that Satan does exist. Bit for me it is a bit more than just what is in the Bible. I knew three people on a personal level that were very heavy in the occult.  God in grace and mercy will not let me see the whole picture of that 3 year time in my life. All i get is very small bits and pieces and a warning not to look there as it something far more painful than i am ready to handle.

What changed for me is when God showed me that we have nothing to fear from Satan. Satan is a created being. Yes he is a liar,thief,deceiver,and an accuser. But he is NOT God. He is limited as to what he can and can not do. He is not all powerful,all knowing etc. Satan is on a proverbial leash. Satan can only tempt us he can not force us to do evil. Far to often Satan gets far more of the blame for evil when in reality evil comes from the hearts of mankind. Yes when Satan tempts me that is the part he is responsible for he is NOT responsible for my choice. The choice i make is mine and mine alone.

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 11:58:11 AM
Hey Annah.  Not looking to create a confrontation here.  But, I do believe in the whole Bible.  It doesn't backfire on me at all.  I know I am a child of God.  I know I am who He made me to be.  I know I am not perfect, and never will be until He calls me home.  To say there is no satan...no evil force is going against the Bible.  It is preaching deceit. 
If I am wrong and the Bible ...God shows me my wrong, I will be grateful.  The Bible proves itself.  Look to God instead of all the people with big degrees after their names.  The Bible is the truth...the way...to life!

Please be very careful. The bible never states that the bible itself is life. Jesus was quoted as saying "I am the way,the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by me" Life is in God through Jesus. Now that does not mean that the bible is to be ignored but it is not to be placed on a pedestal above God. It is a tool and a gift that was given us to show small glimpses into how God wants to work in our lives. I think at times we missed the point God wants us to use the bible in a way that we ask God to teach us what God is trying to tell us. It is not to replace our time at God's feet to learn because there is so much more that God wants to show us than just what is in the bible and those things can only be learned by spending time with God.

Quote from: Annah on November 10, 2011, 12:05:32 PM
And that is awesome that you believe in the whole Bible as it is written on the surface level. I just do not. I wanted to make it clear that this is not me picking and choosing scripture that I like. My interpretations of the scripture is vastly different than yours. This does not mean I omit it. Also, I believe the Bible to be a divine book of spiritual truths; however, I believe it is not the only authoritative source tho. It is one of many that I use.

It's the most authoritative to me in the Christian areas of theology but not in other spiritual spheres of theology.

This is just my opinion. God can use what is on the surface to teach us and God can also show us so much more in the same verses. It's part of the maturing process. The closer we get to God the more God can show us. I need to be open and aware of the fact that there are times when I have been so sure I had it right only to find that God will show me i was so.... wrong. (It is part of the learning and correcting process that we go through)

Just for something to think about. Is God more concerned about us getting the heart and soul of what is being said or is God more concerned about us getting all of the i's dotted and t crossed? One thing that was pointed out to me recently there is a language that is still currently in use which is a very simple language there is a total of a little over 2,000 words and if God has said that there will be those from every nation,every tribe and every tongue how would it be possible to even think that there is any way if you were to translate the bible from English which Webster's dictionary third edition published in 1971 has over 450,000 words would it not make sense that God is far more concerned with the matter of the heart and the not legalistic interpretation?

Ask good ol' mixie why she walked out on a $20,000  a semester scholarship at Columbia University at Union Theological Seminary?

mmmmm

'causa all the "debates" between believers who have never even bothered to read the bible in the first place.


stop debating "personal perspective" in a way that tries to designate the  "gospel truth" because y'all don't know tweekie!  LOL

Quote from: mixie on November 10, 2011, 08:47:28 PM

stop debating "personal perspective" in a way that tries to designate the  "gospel truth" because y'all don't know tweekie!  LOL

This is very true. I came to the conclusion, the more I learn about God, the less I know about God. Eight years taking theology courses, I know quite a bit about Church History, various doctrines, theology, counseling, etc., but when it comes to the nature and essence of God, the amount I know is minuscule (and that's too much).

A professor of mine once said something very intriguing to our Ancient Hebrew Language Class. She said,

"When people go to Medical school to be a doctor, they don't watch a bunch of "House, MD" or read "Gray's Anatomy" and assume they know enough to get through the Medical program. A student getting her or his studies in Psychology don't assume they have it all down because they saw "Dr Phil" or read some self help books." So why is it then, when people come to Seminary, some students think they got it all figured out before their first class because they read the Bible and read some devotionals?"

It got a lot of us thinking.

Although I do not identify as Christian these days, I was raised in a Christian household and taught the Bible as my parents and my Minister understood it. Later, I did extensive independent study of the Bible from a historical, linguistic, and cultural context, so maybe my take on the subject will be of interest to somebody.

I will not claim to know whether the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God or not, but I have always taken the view that each of the books, regardless of whether it came from God or not, was actually penned by mortal human beings with all the fallibilities and personal agendas common to mortal human beings. We make mistakes. We misunderstand things we are told. We hold cultural assumptions that may or may not be true. We have biases we may not even be aware of.

I think (and this is only my personal opinion, I don't ask you to agree with me) that a true determination of the message of each book of the Bible can only be arrived at through a deep study of the writings, taking into account such things as the metaphors and linguistic paradigms of the time and region where they were penned.  For example, most translations of the Bible that I have seen refer to God with male pronouns, yet we are told that mankind was created in the image of God. We are also told that "male and female he created them." Taking those two claims together, I get a mental image of a God that transcends gender creating humans in multiple genders.

Most of the societies of the times were Patriarchal in nature, so it follows that the languages would also assume a Patriarchal mind-set.  If you try to reference God in a gender-neutral sense in a Patriarchal language, it can be very difficult to do (English is actually a good example...until somebody thought up zhe/hir/etc, we only really had he/she/it) ...so the author might fall back on the familiar masculine-biased pronouns and word gendering for the sake of convenience. Over many years, the assumption forms with future readers that God must be male when the original meaning was supposed to include a God that is more than just one gender. This process would also apply to other aspects of the writings beyond just gender, as well.

I've also always held that the soul is the province of God, but the body is made of crude matter and is therefore subject to the meddling of the Adversary (often referred to as Satan).  If we believe that both God and Satan are real, it makes sense to me that God might place a pure soul into a body that is appropriate to God's plan...then Satan comes along, makes a few tweaks, and now there is a soul-to-body mismatch. In due time, a transgender or intersexed child is born, or a Down's Syndrome child is born, or an Autistic child is born, yada-yada-yada. I'm sure a fallen angel would have no problem tinkering with something as fragile as DNA.
From this point of view, who's to say whether transgender transition is a corruption of God's plan or a restoration of it. *shrug*

At any rate, just some food for thought. Take it or leave it.

Scarlett I tried not to comment here, as it's not my place to comment on religious topics.

But I prayed for that stuff too. I prayed for god to tell my parents to be nice, and I prayed for god to help me stop being so different from everyone else, and I prayed for some kind of insight, some kind of awareness that might make things easier, or might make me more useful or whole.

I was raised intensely religious. It's okay. I don't want to know what your current beliefs are, but I just want to say it's okay. Who you are is okay. Answers are not forthcoming. Just understand that you are okay as you are.

Consistent refusal to acknowledge that human beings, subject to the influence of their own opinions, socioeconomic pressures, and cultural norms authored the Bible and that it is therefore first and foremost a work of human beings is precisely what held me back from growing as a Christian. It's too easy to simply accept everything in the Bible as true by default, rather than daring to question whether or not Peter, Paul, Luke, and so forth may have gotten something wrong.

This "all or nothing" attitude toward the Bible completely baffles me. Because the text has religious influence it is only possible that its message is either entirely correct or entirely incorrect? It's impossible for Paul to have gotten some things right but other things wrong? Even if we assume that God was literally talking directly to the authors as they wrote, it's completely impossible that they as men may have understood what God was saying very clearly on some occasions and completely misunderstood the meaning in other cases? Or even if they did understand what God was saying, it's impossible that they were simply unable to properly convey what was meant?

I'm certainly not saying that by virtue of the fact that the Bible is a product of man, it is invalid as a source of truth. I'm simply arguing that the idea that the Bible can only be right in every case or is entirely invalid is (to me) ridiculous.

Quote from: mowdan6 on November 10, 2011, 12:38:29 PM
Hey Sarah.  You are absolutely right.  Sometimes we are put into situations we don't understand.  And we need to stay faithful.  For myself, I know why God made me a transman...but I won't go into that.  You stay strong in God.  He will see you through.  God Bless you! 
Also,  don't stop putting forth your requests to God.  There is the vese that says," Ask and it will be given you."  etc.  But in the original language, it says, "Ask,  and keep asking...and keep asking...seek...and keep seeking....etc.
Never stop bringing your requests to God.  He hears.

Hey Mowdan,

I wanted to take some time before coming back to this. ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. Sorry venting a bit.

It's something I do not yet have the answers for. For some reason God has me on this path to keep seeking a transformation. At the same time I am being shown that it's not a path that at the end is going to be all gumdrops and lollipops. It may cost me every thing I have including my life. This mountain is very high,steep and difficult.  At times I even question my own sanity because it seems crazy. It goes against all logic. And I also see that it would be an awesome gift that has great responsibilities before God. I often find myself asking "Why has this been laid on my heart?" I see others that I think deserve it more. I keep thinking "God you sure picked a messed up wreck of a human being and this just doesn't make any sense to me." I often think that I have done anything that would be considered great things, I would never win a popularity contest,I would not be considered rich by American terms,I most often spend my time humanly alone. I am also conflicted as at the same time i want it so... badly and yet i am also so very afraid.

How God is going to work this out I have no clue. Somehow I just know that I am in for the ride of my life and as long as I hold on to God with everything I have and am I will be gotten through it.


Just something else that came to mind to me the past day or so. Two other questions which are not often asked but which ties into this. I have yet to hear very many or even to the point I am not sure I have ever heard this question being asked. If God were to answer us and transform our bodies it would mean taking on the whole ball of wax so to say. I am just using this as an example being in a male body and then being transformed into a cisgendered female.It means that then i would go through periods which could include cramps,bloating,possable severe PMS etc. The add to that that then I could be dealing with possible cervical cancer,ovarian cysts,higher chance of breast cancer,osteoporosis,and any other health issues that are typical to cisgendered women. The question then being "Can I accept this and am I willing to allow God to take me through this?" and the second being is if God were to do so and should any of these things that are typical of cisgendered woman happen to me would I get mad at God for answering that prayer and then try to lay blame at God's "feet" for my choice?