The Christopher Street Bar, a gay drag bar in florida, has enacted a dress code policy for it's patrons. I hesitate to even post this, as I frankly don't have a problem with this particular case for some reason. But it is of interest, even if only for the ethical debate it represents.

The club provides this official "canned" description:

Christopher Street implemented a dress code based on dozens of customer complaints.  The previous location was having a problem with older "straight" guys dressing as women (without undergarments I might add) and causing problems with our Gay cliental.  It got to the point were something had to be done.  Based on suggestions from Our guest and then on the advise of our attorney, we put a dress code in effect which allowed us to control the problem without discriminating based on race, sex, creed or religion.  Since placing our dress code policy in effect the problem seems to have been solved.  With the exception of two individuals, who I will not name, everyone has been very happy with this solution, business has tripled, we have Not had one altercation between guest.  It seems the problem has been solved with the exception of the very few who want to make this Something it is not,  We thank you for your understanding and hope this clears up any confusion.

When asked for clarification, the owner allegedly emailed:

We welcome everyone to our club. In response to customer complaints, we have enacted a dress code policy that simply states to dress gender appropriate. Since placing this policy in effect, the customer response has been overwhelmingly positive. The club does not discriminate based on race, religion, sex etc. It is simply a dress code policy to ensure that all patrons have an enjoyable visit.

I wrote the owner and asked specifically what he meant by "gender appropriate;" that is, if I, as a transitioning transsexual would be allowed to enter, dressed in ordinary female attire. I received:

This really is not even an issue. We have only turned two individuals away based on our policy and those two both were problem people at our old location.... We enacted a dress code policy worded on the advice of our attorney. You cannot have a dress code policy that is only good for some people and changes for others, it must be the same across the board. I understand that the public not knowing the situation would think this is not a fair code. I assure you it truly has never been an issue. If someone goes out for the evening dresses appropriately (as if they were going to an Olive Garden for dinner) they would not even be noticed. If someone dresses in women's night clothing or lack of it, a five oclock shadow and an attitude towards our gay cliental, we have at least protected our cliental and guests from problems.

I DO think a generic policy was a clumsy way to solve a problem with two individuals, but somehow this just doesn't bother me. He did say "gender appropriate," not "birth-sex appropriate." And besides, it is a GAY DRAG BAR. Going there as an erotically-dressed hetrerosexual crossdresser just seems... I dunno... rude somehow.

Maybe I'm wrong, I mean half of me is screaming, "it's discrimination!" But the other half is saying, "come on, it's a gay bar - let them have their space." I mean I'm sure a gazillion bars have official or unofficial rules to maintain their "theme," such as lesbian, gay, biker, punk, goth, etc.

My disinterest was NOT received well on another forum ("undermining back stabber", "idiot", etc.).

Kate

Wow.  Apparently all they are saying is they only want passable people to be able to dress as their gender.  Now, what I wonder is, if a lesbian came in there dressed in jeans and a tanktop, would THEY be kicked out?

Melissa

It sounds to me that the bar owner was using the dress code to prevent certain kinds of behavior, which perhaps in their mind is associated with people that dress in the proscribed manner.  Kinda like using a hand grenade to scare away some pesky pigeons, in  my opinion.

It is discrimination but over a behavior or set of behaviors that are under a person's conscious control so I'm not sure if it's unfair discrimination.  Especially if the people in question were "causing problems" with their clientele.

I suspect the enforcement of this code will be the telling point so I would just wait and see.

hugs & smiles
helen

Since they said "gender appropriate" as opposed to "sex appropriate" I don't have a problem with it. My gender is female and I dress that way.
And as I'm sure they like paying customers, they won't give anyone a hard time without a better reason than how they're dressed.
My 2 cents.

Karen Lyn      

Sounds like a few jerks were ruining things for the bunch and they had to take steps to avoid this and have a legal leg to stand on in case things got bad.  While I hate to think that my passability is what allows me to be at a club or not, it is already going on.  This place just seems to be more up front about it and not due to not liking those who may be a bit different but because trouble makers forced it upon them.

Without knowing the whole story, this one is a really tough call.

Quote from: Kiera on March 16, 2007, 06:47:56 PM
Melissa, I would think not.

Which was my point Kiera. 

Quote from: Kate on March 16, 2007, 04:48:22 PM
You cannot have a dress code policy that is only good for some people and changes for others, it must be the same across the board.

They succinctly state that it applies to everyone, but then they are fine with a woman dressing in men's clothing.

Melissa

I think Helen's got it again. It's the enforcement that will tell what they really mean.

Gay bars are used as a dumping ground for everyone who doesn't fit the straight, gender-conforming norm. And that's not what gay bars are about. They're about giving a space to gay people to be gay. It's no more unfair of them to say, this isn't a trans/crossdresser space than it is for a straight bar to say that. In fact, I'd say it's more unfair for a straight bar to say it.

Just because a bar caters to gay people doesn't mean they cater to S/M, cross dressers, or any other different from the norm community. They deserve their space too.

Dennis

Here's my personal experience with the gay community.  In my area, the trans and gay communities are tied fairly close together.  I'm one of those bonds and by that I mean, one of the local gay bars recently added a transgendered category to their pride representatives (Mr. Ms. etc.) and I hold that title.  In fact I was the first in the area.  As a result I end up being active in the local community a lot and many of the gays and lesbians understand I am a woman.  I'm also bi and they understand that means attracted to straight men and lesbians (or other bi women).  Like I said, they realize I'm a woman and not a man that wears women's clothes.  Some of it has been through me explaining it, but I think they can tell even just by my demeanor.  Pretty much if a gay guy hits on me I let him know right off the bat that I'm not interested and if they get insistent (and they usually do) I end up getting angry at them.  I even had 2 who was shocked when they realized my breasts were actually real and backed off a lot at that point.  It will be nice when I have my surgery since I'll just be able to tell them I don't have a penis.  Of course the last time they didn't bother me 1 bit because I guess I passed or maybe because I was wearing jeans or both.

So as I mentioned, I'm bi right now, so my involvement in the gay community will continue some and I'll keep on educating some of those men who don't get it at first.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 17, 2007, 10:02:06 AM
So as I mentioned, I'm bi right now, so my involvement in the gay community will continue some and I'll keep on educating some of those men who don't get it at first.

Good for you Melissa!!!! 

QuoteThe previous location was having a problem with older "straight" guys dressing as women (without undergarments I might add) and causing problems with our Gay cliental.

I understand where they are coming from on this however.  A few years ago, I was leaving a bar in Atlanta and sitting outside on the hood of a car was someone wearing a VERY short skirt and no underwear other than a pair of sheer pantyhose.  The way they were sitting, everything and I mean EVERYTHING was visible down the leg of his pantyhose. (I won't dignify this person with a fem pronoun) Personally I found it quite disgusting.  I would think that if someone dressed club appropriate and not like a $25 working girl on some street corner, they would not have a problem being admitted.  And if they did, find another club or bar.

Bev

Tink,

What an exciting experience and a terrible one, all at the same time.  They all knew you and did not recognize you?  Well, done, my little faerie.  But so sorry you had to go through the stares.  How did BF react?

And I do agree with you that the gay community just doesn't really get it sometimes (nor do we always understand their concerns.)  At the risk of vastly oversimplifying things, the gay community seems to want to live in a respected but admittedly "alternative" lifestyle.  I've never wanted anything more than to fit in with society and not be seen as different from any other woman.  That's why, for me, the flag waving just doesn't interest me.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on March 17, 2007, 12:04:50 PM
the gay community seems to want to live in a respected but admittedly "alternative" lifestyle.  I've never wanted anything more than to fit in with society and not be seen as different from any other woman.  That's why, for me, the flag waving just doesn't interest me.

Exaaaaaactly.

That's what I'm realizing more and more, and why I'm so frustrated when our critics suggest we're "pushing an agenda" or asking them to "accept diversity." The bitter irony is that we're not asking anyone to accept our differences, we're asking them to accept us as "one of them" in a way - the only real difference being the route we took to get there.

I think I realized that I've been selfishly hitching myself onto the fight for freedom of gender expression and even sexuality simply because it protects me right NOW, while I transition, while it *appears* as if I'm "gender variant" or expressing mannerisms and expressions incongruent with my sex.

But truth be told, it's not where I want to be, I don't *identify* with it - it's just a temporary phase I have to try and get through in my attempt to become boring, mundane and mainstream.

Kate

My two cents...

The owners obviously don't want their establishment to become a "den of inequity" where unseemly characters making a mockery of women are accepted.  If I owned a public place I'd want to attract clientele that fits the image I have of the place and I'd discourage attire that is not within the image I want the place to convey. 

I'm not much a fan of some drag queens because I feel they give us a bad name and mock women.  Men showing up in nightwear with 5 o'clock shadows hurt our image.  They are very obviously male.  When main-streamers see them they think this is what a transvestite/transsexual is and they tend to lump real transwomen in with them.  It's counteractive to all of us who venture out as normal women and the work we do to educate the public as to who we really are.

Bottom line: I see no problem with the dress code and if it were my place I'd do the same thing.

Julie

Drag queens were in the front lines at Stonewall in 1969, bravely fighting for all our rights, gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, transsexual, etc.

zythyra

Quote from: JulieMarieI'm not much a fan of some drag queens because I feel they give us a bad name and mock women.

I don't like the idea of drag queens representing us in anyway either for the same reasons you've stated.

I don't fight to be "one of them" because I never had a desire to be a clone.  I fight to have the same rights that everyone else has in our society.  Hopefully the education aspect that I do will help with tolerance and acceptance but right now I want to not have to fear for a job or housing.  I may even want to marry down the line.  I don't trust others to speak up for me so I have to do it myself.

However, in the end I know it is how much I may appear to be like one of the crowd that has brought about the general acceptance I have experienced.  When I lectured last the two people who came up to me told me how good I looked right away and then started talking about other things.

As for DQs, the ones that I have met do it for entertainment.  They play off of stereotypes in order to get a laugh.  Most have been really friendly and presented as a gay male outside of the few times per month that they get all dolled up and have some fun.

As for some of the other stories.  Yes, if someone is going in without underwear and flashing the patrons, they need to be given the big boot or even have charges pressed against them.

It's hard to say where I'd fall on this dress code position. There just isn't enough information to form a reasonable opinion.  But it does sound like there were a couple of characters who were willing to ruin a good thing.

As for the gay/lesbian/ts thang.... I know that there are differences.  They are clearly cut from our perspective. The public doesn't see it at all.  In any case, I am so pleased that the common front of the LGBT represents us in fighting for equal rights.  I think that generally, the gay community is one of our strongest allies.  I would hesitate to do anything to antagonize them   We enjoy many fruits of their labor.

Cindi

Quote from: LostInTime on March 18, 2007, 08:54:25 PM
I don't fight to be "one of them" because I never had a desire to be a clone.  I fight to have the same rights that everyone else has in our society.  Hopefully the education aspect that I do will help with tolerance and acceptance but right now I want to not have to fear for a job or housing.  I may even want to marry down the line.  I don't trust others to speak up for me so I have to do it myself.

I could just hug you right now.

tink

Quote from: LostInTime on March 18, 2007, 08:54:25 PM
As for DQs, the ones that I have met do it for entertainment.  They play off of stereotypes in order to get a laugh.  Most have been really friendly and presented as a gay male outside of the few times per month that they get all dolled up and have some fun.

I personally have no problems with dragqueens.  Heck, just yesterday I was helping one with her makeup a bit because she needed a woman's touch.

Melissa

If they don't want to be a T bar then they don't have to be, imagine if a bunch of erotically dressed crossdressers invaded any other establishment, they'd get kicked out.

In my personal experience I used to avoid going to gay bars with friends as people would read me and I really just did not enjoy it, no fuss was caused just the knowing glance or the over emphasized female address by the bar staff, it bothered me, so I stopped going until I had 100% competence in my passing and now if the group I'm out with head that way I'll go too and not make some lame excuse, it's not like I frequent them by preference, just I have a fair few LGBT friends.

I go to a gay club in a city near where I live.  For one, they don't care that someone with estrogen likes to hang out.  I get great treatment from the bartenders (who know I am T) and I have only been read on occasion.  Most of the guys are pretty nice and I have found only some of the older ones have a problem with T people popping in.  Some nights I am the only gal there and on others, there's a good mix between gay, straight, bi, TS, and CD.

There is another gay club where the gay leather crowd likes to hang.  Since I am in the leather community I called them up once and asked when they were open and when a good time to get there would be.  the guy on the other end just kept saying, "Ma'am, you probably won't like it here."  So I spent my money elsewhere.  Heck I can hang out with leather folks just about anytime.