Kia Ora,

I mean no disrespect to lesbian-trans-women who identify as 'butch'...

Would a butch identifying trans-lesbian woman's 'masculine/androgynous appearance be of beneficial when it comes to being accepted as a female[be it a very butch female] in society ?

Metta Zenda

I'll let you know... (not that the word "butch" has ever passed my lips in seriousness...)

Though my general impression from the experiences of people on here is that being accepted is a function of accepting yourself and feeling confident in your own identity, more than it is to do with how you "appear". I know I get more trouble from people when I expect it than when I don't.

Kia Ora Padma,

It was just an interesting thought that happened to pop into my head....I know a few butch lesbians [genetic girls] who dress and act in a very masculine way[some even have facial hairs]...

So for trans-women who identify as 'butch' lesbians, their transitional path in regards to 'appearance' would in theory be of less importance, compared to the  'lipstick' trans-lesbian woman...

I guess I would be a lipstick asexual bi-affectionate woman 

Metta Zenda  

I've never really thought about it, but I do feel more comfortable trying to pass in a good pair of jeans and a simple top than anything ultra-femme.

As I've mentioned before on Susan's, I'm just relieved to have stopped trying to "pass" as a man and now I'm just enjoying looking like me. And like Amaranth, "me" wears trousers (but they're girl trousers now - loving the boot cut ). If I were 20 years younger, I'd probably be trying to look like Shane from The L Word, but those days are over for me :sob:.

I must confess a slight reaction to the whole "you're either femme or you're butch" metaphor - my psychiatrist pulled that one on me when he wrote to my GP, saying I'd described myself as "butch" simply because I told him my goal wasn't to appear heterofemme . I've never used the term "butch" to describe myself (and find it a bit pejorative). In terms of anatomy, I'm supposed to be female, but in terms of look, I seem to be into something kind of androgynous. I think there's still a cultural assumption that one's choices are to appear either masculine or feminine, and if you choose the one of those that's counter to your apparent gender, then you get labelled as "butch" or "sissy" or whatever. A very inflexible pigeonholing system we're working with .

Kidding right? How well do you pass in men's clothes, no makeup, and an androgynous (or worse, male) hairstyle? Takes some serious genetic or financial gifts to pull off "butch" rather than just "male."

Even what I wear as an andro would cripple the passability of a lot of girls. Each bit of masculine clothing or style adds more pressure to your facial structure and voice to be perfect. On the other hand, if you do pass, you are entirely invisible, since butch and andro trans girls don't really exist of course.

Also, lipstick? So old fashioned. Femme.

Quote from: Padma on September 18, 2011, 02:00:12 AM
trying to look like Shane from The L Word

^^ The current icon for andro style.

Quote from: Padma on September 18, 2011, 02:00:12 AM
As I've mentioned before on Susan's, I'm just relieved to have stopped trying to "pass" as a man and now I'm just enjoying looking like me. And like Amaranth, "me" wears trousers (but they're girl trousers now - loving the boot cut ). If I were 20 years younger, I'd probably be trying to look like Shane from The L Word, but those days are over for me :sob:.

I must confess a slight reaction to the whole "you're either femme or you're butch" metaphor - my psychiatrist pulled that one on me when he wrote to my GP, saying I'd described myself as "butch" simply because I told him my goal wasn't to appear heterofemme . I've never used the term "butch" to describe myself (and find it a bit pejorative). In terms of anatomy, I'm supposed to be female, but in terms of look, I seem to be into something kind of androgynous. I think there's still a cultural assumption that one's choices are to appear either masculine or feminine, and if you choose the one of those that's counter to your apparent gender, then you get labelled as "butch" or "sissy" or whatever. A very inflexible pigeonholing system we're working with .

The role I've found for myself, which lies, as you said, somewhere between the "butch" and "femme" paradigm, is that of the "tomboy femme": for me, this generally means that I have an androgynous hairstyle and wear jeans and leggings with more traditionally feminine tops, and adding atop that androgynous military-cut jackets.
I'm definitely not "femme" - I don't have a particularly feminine hairstyle, I detest makeup from a societal standpoint, I rarely shave my legs, and have generally "butch" mannerisms.  But I'm also not abiding by many of the defining characteristics of butchness, either.  The solution is somewhere in the middle.

That said, I definitely think that passing privilege grants me the option of presenting as butch if I want.  I do crossdress for fun on occasion, and I think most of the time people just end up assuming I'm a butch lesbian.

People don't seem to know which way i am going which works for me. Mostly though people think i am a woman who is very very butch

No, the masculinity clocks them immediately.

Quote from: Zenda on September 17, 2011, 01:49:55 AM

Kia Ora,

I mean no disrespect to lesbian-trans-women who identify as 'butch'...

Would a butch identifying trans-lesbian woman's 'masculine/androgynous appearance be of beneficial when it comes to being accepted as a female[be it a very butch female] in society ?

Metta Zenda

When you asked the question, i thought of overweight gals with crew cuts and lumberjack flannel shirts. Where I live, this is what the average butch lesbian looks like.

So, in my opinion, I would imagine it be harder to pass if you are a Andro butch lesbian trans....cuz you'll look just like a guy without a beard.

Quote from: Annah on November 07, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
When you asked the question, i thought of overweight gals with crew cuts and lumberjack flannel shirts. Where I live, this is what the average butch lesbian looks like.

So, in my opinion, I would imagine it be harder to pass if you are a Andro butch lesbian trans....cuz you'll look just like a guy without a beard.

Remind me to stay away from where you live...our butches are hot! 

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 07, 2011, 03:17:34 PM
Remind me to stay away from where you live...our butches are hot! 

Unless you are attracted to a Hugh Jackman's style of Wolverine as a butch woman in Lancaster, I wouldn't recommend coming here lol.

Quote from: Annah on November 07, 2011, 03:29:50 PM
Unless you are attracted to a Hugh Jackman's style of Wolverine as a butch woman in Lancaster, I wouldn't recommend coming here lol.

Actually, my best friend dressed up as a lesbian werewolf for Halloween. >_>

Quote from: Annah on November 07, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
When you asked the question, i thought of overweight gals with crew cuts and lumberjack flannel shirts. Where I live, this is what the average butch lesbian looks like.

So, in my opinion, I would imagine it be harder to pass if you are a Andro butch lesbian trans....cuz you'll look just like a guy without a beard.

Well in my case I had complete facial electro over a dozen yrs ago and i have these few long stragler facial hairs that no man can grow jst a few facial hairs 1 to 2 inches long. I had 3 FFS with Dr O back in 98 so i have no male features. I have bigger hips than my shoulders and i have all my head hair so people usually think i am a FTM / woman trying to dress and appear male.. not the other way around. Oh my voice does go kinda high every so often if i am not thinking but i can lower it if i think about it while talking. I had spoke in high falseto for so long i had lost my deep male voice yrs ago.. So yea its possible and i wear flanel shirts and lumber jack boots but i have recently allowed my hair to grow longer and its almost long enough to put in a pony tail 

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 02:39:48 PM
No, the masculinity clocks them immediately.

Are you sure about that, hun?

Quote from: Cadence Jean on November 27, 2011, 07:03:39 PM
Are you sure about that, hun?

URGH CADENCE I LOVE YOUR HAIR

Can you take a picture that shows it a little better?  I'd really appreciate if you could so I could take it to a salon post-haste and get my hairs done. :]

No, as others have said, it would probably only highlight the masculine features and traits already present. You actually have to have pretty femme features in order to dress masculine and still look like a female. Basically a female in guy clothes.

I've been VERY fortunate to pass even in "butch" type clothing and situations. I played on a lesbian softball team this past season. We all wore guy-cut t-shirts and shorts. I also wore a baseball cap. Nobody was ever the wiser unless I told them and then they were pretty shocked. I was only brave enough to do that when I realized I still passed even in my old guy Ts and shorts. I guess I was blessed with genetic gifts in that regard. I know that when I first went to the transgender center in Houston in boy-mode, they all thought I was actually an FTM.

Quote from: Melody Maia on November 27, 2011, 11:34:36 PM
No, as others have said, it would probably only highlight the masculine features and traits already present. You actually have to have pretty femme features in order to dress masculine and still look like a female. Basically a female in guy clothes.

I've been VERY fortunate to pass even in "butch" type clothing and situations. I played on a lesbian softball team this past season. We all wore guy-cut t-shirts and shorts. I also wore a baseball cap. Nobody was ever the wiser unless I told them and then they were pretty shocked. I was only brave enough to do that when I realized I still passed even in my old guy Ts and shorts. I guess I was blessed with genetic gifts in that regard. I know that when I first when to the transgender center in Houston in boy-mode, they all thought I was actually an FTM.

I wanted to join a gay softball team. But it wasn't meant to be.

Definitely not. I was girly girl from day 0 and it was always very easy to pass with that, even when I felt like I shouldn't pass.

Though you should dress to suit your features ofc.